FATHER DIVINE Interview Granted to Mr. Maxwell Fisk, of Australia In the Office-workshop, of the Peace Center Church, 152-160 West 126th Street, New York City, Friday, May 8th, 1942 A.D.F.D
BLESSED REDEEMER, WE THANK THEE!
(The foregoing statements are those of the transcriber, and the interview follows:)
Secretary: This is Mr. Fisk from Australia, FATHER.
Mr. Fisk: How do You do, FATHER?
FATHER: PEACE! How are you? What might be your name?
Mr. Fisk: My name is Maxwell Fisk. I’m from Australia . ..
FATHER: I see.
Mr. Fisk: . . . and I came not really for myself, although I am really interested, but for my father’s sake. He is interested, very interested, way off in Australia, and he asked me to come in to see You, but I put it to get some of Your magazines. He wants them.
FATHER: I see.
Mr. Fisk: … and I am going to take them back to Australia to him . . .
FATHER: That’s fine.
Mr. Fisk: . . . and one of Your people was so kind to me. I want to get one of the modern -the latest issue. They gave me a very good pile of the back numbers …
Mr. Fisk: . . . but I have just been down listening to them in the room-You would call it the confession, would You?
FATHER: Yes, maybe, in the auditorium?
Mr. Fisk: Yes. It is fascinating.
Struck by the Happiness of the Followers
Mr. Fisk: Do You know–of course, You will have heard this from many, many people, but coming in as a stranger from a land so far away and just coming in, the first thing that hits me is the happiness on everyone’s face.
FATHER: It is wonderful! Well, they are, they are quite happy. It is considered through faith in GOD and sincerity, if a person is sincere in whatsoever they do, that person can reach a source of happiness beyond a reasonable doubt, that transcends the average state of happiness that the average person has who is not really conscientiously sincere.
Mr. Fisk: Yes, I can understand that.
Mr. Fisk: Is that why I don’t get the feeling to get up and talk myself ? . . .
FATHER: Well . . .
Mr. Fisk: . . . or is it just because I don’t know enough about it?
FATHER: It may be as one learns, as one hears and understands more, is more sincere, as I said a moment ago, you take on more momentum, as I might term it to be, to move volitionally, and you are more internally inspired, and, of course, you move volitionally, and as you move and express yourself in some way, more inspirations usually come, but it is through one’s willingness to relax, relax the conscious mentality, the preconceived ideas and opinions and rely on something supernatural, something out of the ordinary MY Spirit itself will awake, will respond to such a conviction.
Sincerity Needed for the Best Result
Of course, as you say, one must be sincere to get the best results out of any religious devotion. It does not necessarily mean going through the process of sadness and agony and
seriousness, as it may be termed, to fill the space or place of sincerity. One can be sincere and not be actually sad or, as you might deem it to be, to go through a sense of meditation. Lots of people meditate and concentrate and visualize and beseech and seek through the method of beseeching and requesting with grovelling attitude towards GOD, but this is not especially necessary if one can and will make the contact mentally and spiritually through the relaxation of the conscious mentality by being conscientious and sincere.
Mr. Fisk: One of Your very kind people down below was talking to me and he was explaining little parts of Your Movement and he said I am on the Queen Mary; I am an engineer officer on the Queen Mary, and he said if ever I get into trouble You will help me anyhow, no matter in what state of mind I am. Is that true?
FATHER: Positively! If the contact can be made it is the same as a radio receiving set and the radio broadcasting system; it is transmitted-or .. in other words, it is present, it is EVER PRESENT the same as the radio receiving set; that is, a portable radio. It is not necessary for it to even be connected with any mechanical connections of wires or anything of that sort to get the message. It is scientific, it is true, it is accurate, it is instantaneous-, it reaches the person wheresoever he may be if he harmoniously makes the contact from a mental and spiritual point of view.
How It Works
It is not anything I do as a PERSON, but according to the great Creative Forces of Nature it is a known fact that GOD is present everywhere, and wheresoever GOD is known to be GOD at, from that CENTER I can function effectively, for the faith that is in GOD from that angle. Hence, through the thought or contact made mentally and spiritually it is transmitted, in other words it is there, and it reacts upon the impulse of the moment if one can be. substantiated in faith and unshaken in confidence.
Mr. Fisk: Yes. That is the whole point where it is not like your receiving set, is it?
FATHER: I beg your pardon? You said it isn’t . . .
Mr. Fisk: Unless I become a real follower of Yours it’s no use for me, in case of an emergency like that-it’s -no use for me asking for help. It has to become part on my part. Therefore I wouldn’t be so strong to receive it?
p>FATHER: It’s true, it works more effectively if you are systematically and co-operatively in harmony with the spiritual set-up and system of things; it does work more effectively. But even though one may not be systematically, harmoniously, co-operatively connected, if they make the mental and spiritual contact harmoniously, the reaction may bring a desirable result. I have had many people to react upon the impulse of the moment in certain things that happen. People have been helped by making the contact, for it is a true saying GOD is present everywhere and
you know not how to pray as you ought, but the SPIRIT itself maketh intercession in groanings which cannot be Uttered.
Hence, the SPIRIT itself through your contact, by faith, with the SPIRIT in one, it responds automatically if that person is under the channel of the SPIRIT or under the banner of the SPIRIT.
Sincere Secret Prayer
One writer says,
He that dwelleth in the .Secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the ALMIGHTY.
So when you are under the jurisdiction or under the guidance of the Spirit of GOD in the spirit of sincerity and in secrecy, the prayer you petition, or make out, as in making your petition, or petitioning, is not a prayer to be necessarily shouted on the housetop to be heard by men, but the prayer that is prayed in the spirit of sincerity ‘in secrecy, the prayer is heard and answered speedily. For this cause Jesus, the great LOVE MASTER, said,
When ye pray, enter into the secret closet and pray to the LORD in secret, and He that seeth in secret shall reward you openly.
You may not utter a word outwardly that could be heard by someone standing by, but your prayer, which is the heart’s sincere desire, if it is expressed or if it is unuttered, it is heard and answered speedily, if your prayer comes from the heart of sincerity and conscientiousness with a mind made up to live according to the plan and the purpose.
It is the same as yourself as an official; when you join the army, if you are working for the government in the army or navy, you may not have earned your uniform immediately, but whatsoever rank you are assigned to and appointed to, why, they will give you the uniform, as it may be termed, on credit, knowing you are linked up with them, with the government, to serve. They are not anticipating you being a deserter. They are anticipating you serving the government; therefore, you get your uniform. You have signed up and you get your uniforms and everything necessary; all of the equipment necessary to perform your daily duty.
Blessings on Credit
So it is with the SPIRIT of the TRUTH of which I AM speaking, when one makes up his or her mind to live exactly according to the Life and the Teaching of Jesus as exemplified in the Four Gospels, the very making up of one’s mind to do so, and then being conscientious and sincere, the very desire from such a sincere heart is a prayer if it is an unselfish desire. The prayer is heard and answered speedily because it is received as if though he had been living the Life all along and had paid the price. He has not paid the price yet at times, but yet he is classed as though he has paid the price.
Abraham believed GOD and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
So, you see, it was the same as if though he had been righteous without being righteous when he sincerely believed GOD, for CHRIST said,
He that believeth shall be saved.
So the blessing lies ahead for the faithful believer, but as he believes and brings himself into subjection psychologically or mentally and spiritually, why, he becomes to be an inheritor of the blessings in reality, because he is a new creature and is actually adopted into the Royal Family, as we term it quite often, using the phrase speaking here in America, speaking religiously, you are being, adopted into the Royal Family, which. represents the highest order of spiritual ecstasy in GOD as one might belong to the Royal Family in England. So it is a wonderful thought to know such can be accomplished and one’s desire call be heard and answered. Because of the One in Whom this one trusteth or is trusting, your prayer is heard and answered speedily.
An Example of the Power of FATHER’S Name
I know a quartermaster came here some time ago on a merchant ship, United States merchant ship. His ship had been torpedoed three times, I think it was, and each time he came out victorious-not just because he believed in Me Personally; he did believe in Me Personally, he had read of Me-he had heard of Me and he left this country with his mind on Me, but he believed in GOD with or without a Bodily Form, and truthfully he did call on MY Name and he was protected. He said the German submarines came up on either side of his ship and were going to sink it, and he through his instructions, at just the right moment, caused each one of them to be blown up and he maneuvered out of the wake of them. The two came up on either side of the ship and he called on My Name and he was unharmed.
Of course, it is true, as I tell My immediate followers, you need not wait to get in trouble to call on GOD; you need not wait to be called into the army to become to be a pacifist or to become to be a conscientious objector, for it would not be justifiable if one just desires to evade the issue of the government in the way of the draft. If that person has murder in him; if that person would fight and kill or even protect himself physically in a violent way of protection, that person might as well fight for his country, in a way of speaking. They might have it in them, but sincerity is the great essential, and if one is a true, conscientious, sincere believer in GOD, with or without the time of tribulation, it is written:
Call on Me in the day of trouble and I will deliver you.
It is a positive fact.
Use of “I Thank You, FATHER!”
I have had some just use the words, “I THANK YOU, FATHER!” in the time of some great disaster or emergency. Their prayers are heard and answered immediately and they come out victoriously, absolutely unhurt and unharmed. Nevertheless, this is not a ritual. I do not ordinarily tell a person what to say or what to do in that way, ill the way of speaking, or using, any formula or motto or anything of that sort to reach the throne of grace in the time of emergency. A good many of My followers do, but I do not Personally tell them to do it. However, if they make their rightful contact mentally and spiritually, if they are sincere and conscientious, the very desire of the heart is a prayer and if it is pure and clear or pure and clean, whichever; free from graft and greed and prejudice and bigotry and free from all of the hate and bitterness of man, their prayers are heard and answered speedily.
According to the King James version of the Protestant Bible it teaches one how to pray. It teaches you to pray to
lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.
It teaches us to pray to
forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors; forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Well now, if one does not forgive one who trespasses against him, how can he expect GOD to forgive him in the time of emergency? But if one has a clear heart, free from prejudice, resentment, anger and all of those detestable tendencies, his or her prayer is answered speedily when the simplest desire goes out to seek anything: or to ask for anything. So this is the mystery, according to MY version. Hence. your desire, your prayers, can be heard and answered.
Perfect Harmony with FATHER More Effective
Of course, it is true, it does work more effectively if you are in perfect harmony with Me, for in perfect peace I will keep you if your mind is (constantly) stayed on Me. But if it is not even say, constantly stayed on Me, in the time of emergency, one writer says:
Call on Me in the day of trouble and I will deliver you
and truthfully it is a fact, it has been accomplished so many times.
But this man came and he publicly testified to his experience on the sea and how he was delivered out of his trouble, and every time he came out unharmed and the people could not understand how he could come out and how he did come out; but he did come out absolutely unharmed!
Mr. Fisk: I feel very light and tingling with some inner expression in myself, in energy when I see a beautiful sunset at sea or I am out in the country or alone amongst the trees we have in Australia. Is that anything like the feeling a person in harmony with You would have?
FATHER: Well, yes.
Mr. Fisk: You can understand the feeling I refer to?
FATHER: Positively! It is, in a way of speaking-of course, it may be deemed as more of an ecstasy of internal, supernatural joy that cannot be explained. It has a feeling, it can be felt, it is to the extreme reverse to that of a negative feeling or sense of negation within, even without the conscious realization of what that negative feeling or negation is there for; what caused it. Many times a person can feel a stressful feeling, and even in himself in a sense, as you say, the joy of observing the beautiful sunset or anything beautiful that creates a sense of merriness or pleasure within, and a tingling feeling of joy.
Negation without Recognized Cause
To the extreme reverse, negation is within at times and develops into a sense of discord within, and the person may not be conscious of what causes that negative feeling and what caused him to feel that negation. he knows there is something negative somewhere contacting him. He may not even be conscious of someone’s mind being in opposition to his mind or his plans, yet he may feel that sense of negation and expression of negativeness. But the extreme reverse is equally true. Hence, the sense of joy you feel from an ordinary point of view is a sketch and a reflection, I often say, of a percent of a fraction of a grain of a percent of the reality of that of which I AM speaking to the extreme perfection of that sense of joyfulness you feel within through observing something external.
Of course, there is a spiritual awakening at times in a person, will take place in a person; whichever, when that person observes something externally that is appealing, fascinating and attracting. Therefore, we may feel that sense of joy and it may even, through concentrating in that direction, awaken something within. Something may snap in the person; the person may get an inspiration, an inspiration for invention or for discovery. A scientific inspiration comes at times through the voice of the soul observing something that awakens the person and causes the person to express his or her self at the time when the Spirit is most elated and the vibrations are most highly lifted to contact the Christ Consciousness; and the reaction of such, if one is scientifically inclined, would be in invention or a composition or something that would come from the invisible realm by the spiritual awakening that would take place in the person through concentration. So it is a wonderful thought.
Inspiration from Scenes of Nature
Hence, it is a beautiful thought in your experience even so much as to look out on the beautiful scenes of things of life, the Creative Forces of Nature and the Hand of Nature, and observe GOD expressing so beautifully. Through your concentration in that direction and giving thanks and praise for it, if you are scientifically inclined you may get an inspiration for a new discovery, or a new invention. So it is a wonderful thought. GOD works in every field of activity and every field of endeavor and inspires the devout, conscientious and sincere, and especially if such persons are meek and lowly in heart, for in that CHRIST says, you shall find rest for your soul GOD worked six days, and on the seventh day He rested, for He had finished His work. Your discovery or your conviction by inspiration you are getting through intuition by concentration; if you are scientifically inclined, you may get that discovery, inventional discovery, and may invent something. if you are meek and lowly, in heart, you will find rest for your soul and you will finish that which you have been inspired to do, and it is just a wonderful thought.
Hence, GOD is all there is. I have talked with. men of science and the materialists and the like, those who do not believe in GOD; but when it is explicitly unfolded they can see definitely, GOD is a reality in every activity, or something more than mortality is a reality, more than the material or physical mortality that is observable. It may be deemed in mortality, but it is something that is invisible that brings into observation something that is more than what the conscious mentality, has been thinking.
GOD Works in Every Field
Therefore, an invention, a new discovery, a composition or something is coming from the invisible realm, and that is where GOD is bringing forth His wisdom to the children of men, bringing forth His blessings and bringing forth His help and aid to them. So GOD works in every field of activity if the people can but receive it.
Mr. Fisk: We all have different ways of receiving it, don’t we?
FATHER: That’s right, positively! Some may have a way of receiving something from GOD from a scientific or from an intellectual or from a skillful point of view; some may be inspired with, skill to function or operate the things that have been invented effectively. Some may not be inspired with the skill and the ability to accomplish such, therefore, they may not make a success at it as one who would be inspired with the skill and the ability to accomplish such an aim to control even things that are invented, if they were not inventionally inclined. So it is a wonderful thought.
Hence, the ALLNESS of GOD and the nothingness of matter is made a reality in this highlight of spiritual understanding when one raises his vibrations to contact the CHRIST CONSCIOUSNESS, for GOD in His own consciousness speaks wisdom.
Secretary: FATHER, perhaps Mr. Fisk would be interested in reading the experiences of the quartermaster You mentioned a while ago. I’ll find out what issue they are in and get him a copy of The NEW DAY before he leaves.
FATHER: Yes, and no doubt he would be interested in reading Professor Thorlakson’s experience and his views concerning Me, My Work and My Mission.
His Stay in the City
Secretary: How long will you be in New York, Mr. Fisk?
Mr. Fisk: I don’t know exactly. They will notify me.
FATHER: Now, if you get a call that you have to go out, would you get the message?
Mr. Fisk: No, we are usually given twenty four hours’ notice.
FATHER: Well, if it would be possible for you to be here and come to our meeting Sunday, we would be pleased to have you.
Mr. Fisk: What time is that?
FATHER: Well, of course, Sunday I AM usually at My Tarrytown, Westchester County residence. Of course we have a regular, we term it the Communion Service, it is commonly considered as Banquet Hall at all of the places, and there we serve on Sunday from around twelve o’clock until three or four o’clock; and then down here in the City at the Rockland Palace Sunday evening from seven thirty until maybe ten or twelve o’clock, and if it would be convenient for you to be with us, I would be pleased to have you as My guest both at the banquet table and in the public meetings.
Mr. Fisk: That’s very, very kind of you, Sir. I am honored.
FATHER: We are always pleased to meet and show our hospitality to strangers, and especially anyone who is working for a great cause as yours.
Mr.. Fisk: I am very honored, Sir,
FATHER: Thank you.
Mr. Fisk: My father is the one I think about most of the time, but he is also very interested.
The Work in Australia
FATHER: Yes, I have quite a number of followers throughout Australia.
Mr. Fisk: There are four agencies-four, what would You call them-four places belonging to You out there?
FATHER: That’s right. There was an attorney Youngs, his name was-Charles Youngs, I believe, he was here in the states about ten Or twelve years ago, and himself and his wife and his daughter, the three got, deeply interested in MY Work and Mission, and many of the others in Melbourne and Sydney and several of the different places; even in New Zealand we have some followers. So it would be a great thing if you happen to go through there and if it was convenient and you had the time to speak to any of them, I know they would be very pleased to receive you, especially if you let them know you had been here and had met Me.
Mr. Fisk: Certainly.
Mr. Fisk: You must get a lot of-one couldn’t call it power, but a lot of weight and feeling from all those people all over the world thinking about You. You must. get it.
FATHER: Well, harmonization is the mystery of supply.
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
Transmission of Thought from Harmonization
FATHER: I mean not only from an economic point of view, but from a mental and spiritual point of view, when you harmonize with Me and I harmonize with you, the transmission of your thoughts through your conscious thought or through unconscious mental telepathy it is as effective as the radio broadcasting system.
Mr. Fisk: I believe that myself thoroughly.
FATHER: It really is. Even though a person may not be conscious of it, you get thoughts at times you never had before because you are in contact with some thought force that has a thought you had not had, you. see, and it is transmitted since it is on the same level in the human consciousness as that person, especially if that person is in that state of consciousness and if his vibrations are lifted. It is a wonderful thought to realize what effect it has when the vibrations are lifted. It has the same force as your radio receiving set has when you turn on the volume. It has more force, more power, and it reacts upon the impulse of the moment. As I have often said, if I did not know anything from an intellectual point of view or from a scientific point of view or from a skillful point of view or any other point for consideration, with the right concept and the recognition of GOD, the TRUTH as I see it, I could command as much as I would need to pilot Myself or the Ship of Faith, The Ship of Fate on the Sea of Time. So it is a wonderful thought, because it is transmittable and it is impersonal.
All Is Impersonal
Even your thoughts may be deemed as yours, your gifts and your talents and your understanding may be deemed as yours, but it is all IMPERSONAL. We might try to hold our, understanding in ourselves at times, but it is IMPERSONAL, hence, one who knows the fact concerning the mystery, it is as operative for that person as it is for the one who actually has it. It is a wonderful thought!
Mr. Fisk: It is.
FATHER: So we all are essentially one when we know the truth concerning things, and that is why when you rise to a certain level in consciousness scientifically, spiritually and intellectually, especially if it happens to be from an intellectual point of view, the same language that you speak, why, naturally you will contact someone else of that caliber.
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
FATHER: So it is a wonderful thought. And life is going on, it is advancing and increasing wisdom and knowledge to humanity as the IMPERSONAL LIFE of GOD and OMNISCIENCE of GOD is advancing itself and advancing others and unfolding itself to humanity. I have often said, ” Why should a person be in lacks, wants and limitations from an economic point of view? Why should they live under hardships and depressions? It is not necessary if the person knows the truth concerning the mystery, for that person is a part of the great Universal Scheme of things; and if one person has, and if that person who has is one with the person who has not, that person who has not, automatically and un-deceivingly could and would come into possession of whatsoever that person has who is in harmony with as much as he needs.
Concentration of Thought of Harmonizers
Mr. Fisk: All these people You are talking about, people in harmony, now people out of harmony, if you have got all the people You have in harmony with You and all these people all over the world who are thinking about You at various times and sometimes all the time what would happen if you get all the mental forces? Perhaps some of them would not know the length they could contribute. By concentrating all of that against Hitler, what would happen?
FATHER: Why, it would stop the war immediately! That is the great mystery of what I often tell My people. If harmony results through the rightful contact, if we as the representatives of the democracies, could harmonize with one accord for one common purpose, why, naturally we would bring about PEACE on earth and GOOD WILL to men, and bring an end to warfare and bloodshed immediately; for the forces that be would make null and void the wrath and antagonism that are existing in the world of civilization, for it is ignorance in itself! It is not of civilization, it is in opposition to civilization! It is destroying or undermining civilization!
But they have taken the skill and the ability of men to use it through and for destructive purposes; therefore, when the truth shall have been recognized by the masses generally, why, naturally the civilized world will say that those who promulgate such as the inhuman warfare we are going through, they are undermining democracy and even undermining our civilization because they are taking the wisdom. and knowledge and skill and science of civilization to destroy the civilization that has been built up by science and invention. So it is a thought to be considered.
The Bouquet of Salvation
Hence, I say, as you say, if the thought forces would UNITE for one common purpose for a righteous cause, we could bring an end to warfare and make null and void the violence of Hitlerism and the Japanese and all warmongers that are endeavoring to destroy our civilization. I have a sample of it on a small scale, as you mentioned how these my followers represent such happiness, you see; represent PEACE and a peace-loving nation, having drawn the substance of this from our great BOUQUET of SALVATION. Our nation is a peace-loving nation, nevertheless, it is understood that war has been forced upon us, but those of us who have. Drawn the substance of this peace-loving nation, from this BOUQUET of SALVATION, you see, we represent E PLURIBUS UNUM, one composed of many-and we draw the LOVE and the SPIRIT of DEMOCRACY from all of this nation, the essence and the substance of this democracy. We have formed a perfect form of government within ourselves. Hence, we put it forth into expression Evangelically and yet democratically and express it scientifically and consider a democracy and true democracy are synonymous and by so doing and by so harmonizing the two effectively, we bring about PEACE and HAPPINESS among, ourselves and we convey, it to others, how to express our democracy. Hence, if we live it and express it continually, we will overcome the external enemy even ns we have overcome the internal enemy of which was mentioned:
He that conquers his own will is greater than he that taketh a city.
Mr. Fisk: Yes
Government Not Yet Ready for This Standard
FATHER: So it is a wonderful thought and our government knows where I stand and they know I lift up a standard of real AMERICANISM; but they consider they are not quite ready for it yet. They know this is the standard of Americanism, for it is the essence and substance of the goodness of our democracy. It is the actual ESSENCE and SUBSTANCE of the GOODNESS of our democracy and they know I emphasize it and advocate it and consider it is a standard of a democracy that is second to none, that could not be criticized.
If we express our citizenry according to our Constitution, if we live it according to our Constitution, we put it into practice. They know according to our BILL OF RIGHTS we live it and we express it and we put it into practice. They know according to the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE we express it scientifically and accurately to the letter, because we would not allow a true follower to be a dependent to anybody. We express our INDEPENDENCE and we believe that each person should be independent individually even as our country declared her independence as a nation. So it is a wonderful thought. Hence, we have it in ourselves. We express it accurately and scientifically but governmentally, we may not have come to the full measure of it yet as a nation, but I have the sample and the example because it is the essence and the substance of the goodness of our democracy that we have drawn as the extract of SALVATION from a real citizenry, of real AMERICANS.
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
FATHER: It is wonderful!
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
The Country Was Discovered through Conviction of Devout Religionists
FATHER: Yet we speak religiously and we speak politically, for it was through the religious or through the conscientious conviction of real, devout religious believers that this country was discovered, and its independence came forth in practically the same way. So it is a wonderful thought to see the, real substance and the essence of it is in evidence. The substance of it is in evidence today, and it is just as operative arid just as expressive as it was when the pilgrims came to this country seeking religious liberty; and hence our Constitution. grants them and our President, has said on several occasions that we must have, freedom of religion. Hence, the freedom of religion gives freedom to advancement and development of all things otherwise.
As I have often said, why, the SPIRIT first, according to our biblical teaching, especially as recorded by the King James version of the Bible we find that the SPIRIT was in the beginning, Biblically speaking; hence, it is no way to get away from the SPIRIT, for GOD as SPIRIT and SPIRIT alone, Biblically speaking, moved out upon the face of the deep and said,
Let there he light and there was light.
So the spiritual side is the foundation of all creation, hence, it is the foundation of all government and of all organizations. Hence we recognize it as such and we hold fast to that. Therefore we accomplish much through the recognition of such.
A Sample of Future Democracy
Hence, as I say, as a sample and as an example, as a percent of a fraction of a grain of a percent of a fraction of a grain of a percent of a fraction of a grain of what will be universally, I demonstrate to all government the sample of our future democracy; and when this shall have been established politically universally, we will have something that will stand against all violent destructive forces of man and against all violence.
Be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good,
and we will eventually overcome all of the evil forces of humanity and everything that has been devised and inspired by them that are the instruments of violence, by the spirit of righteousness; for,
Righteousness shall exalt the nation but sin is a reproach to any people.
Mr. Fisk: I was brought up in what they call the Church of England, in the faith- well, it is very similar to many others but I have never had a faith of my own and I have never followed blindly like some of the religions do; and through all that, I learned my Scriptures back to front, I think, but I have never made up my mind to my own satisfaction who CHRIST was. I know He was Somebody who did things but I have never been satisfied as to who He really was.
FATHER: I see. Well, the majority of the people had not, and a good many, yea, I venture to say the majority of them, until now have not; but, according to MY version, as mathematics or as the principle of mathematics is, so is GOD.
Mr. Fisk: Yes, I can understand what You say there.
Both Are Impersonal
FATHER: Mathematics, or the principle of mathematics, whichever, is IMPERSONAL firstly, as I explained concerning GOD being as SPIRIT, according to our biblical history. I speak from that angle and say according to, because some may dispute the fact that it is a fact, you see; but I say according to our Biblical history GOD as SPIRIT moved out and began His creation.
When He began His creation it was only through SPIRIT and SPIRIT alone, and hence, as the principle of mathematics, I stress and emphasize the mystery of GOD; and as the SPIRIT was when it first began its creation, the principle of mathematics is IMPERSONAL and the SPIRIT was IMPERSONAL, if I speak after the manner of men and in the language of them and say concerning the SPIRIT as though it was and is not- hence, I say the SPIRIT, impersonal and invisible. But GOD stooped from His lofty state of highness to say and to create the earth and said,
Let dry land appear,
the earth being void and without form when it was invisible. -But remember, though the earth was one of the lowly creations of the Creative Forces of GOD’S creation, GOD formed man out of the dust of the ground from whence He also formed HIMSELF in the Name of the SON, if I speak after the manner of men so they might understand. Hence, the WORD was made FLESH from the flesh that has its origin from the. earth. You see the mystery?
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
FATHER: And that WORD was GOD, as it is written:
The Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD and the WORD was made FLESH.
Hence, GOD came so low as to make Himself through and from and by the earth, bringing into visibility His Majesty, though it was invisible in the beginning of the creation.
Personification of Mathematics
So it is a wonderful thought to observe the mystery, and as with the mystery of the SPIRIT, so with the mystery of mathematics. Mathematics could be considered from that angle and we speak of the principle of mathematics, we might use that phrase which means the same mathematics or the principle of mathematics, is IMPERSONAL. It has no form nor comeliness; it is as, GOD was in the beginning of the creation, but yet mathematically and in the world of accounts we cannot do without the principle of mathematics. Nevertheless, when one imbibes the understanding and learns to master the, system or the principle of mathematics and allows the principle to become to be developed in them, that person is a mathematician or they are mathematicians because they have developed that invisible something and brought it to fruition. Hence, they become to be a mathematician; in other words the PERSONIFICATION, the PERSON of mathematics, of the PRINCIPLE of mathematics.
As with that, so with GOD. GOD is, with or without a BODY, but when through His condescension He takes on a BODY and develops Himself in it, as was in the experience of the Body called Jesus-He was the SON of GOD. It was a degree of GOD developed, and that degree was to the SONSHIP degree of GOD in the FLESH. It was made FLESH and it was, GOD, and men beheld His GLORY as the glory of the only begotten of the FATHER; so we do not necessarily have to especially depict GOD as a PERSON, but with or without a BODY, or with or without a PERSON, GOD is GOD, even as the principle of Mathematics; but the PRINCIPLE is inactive, in a way of speaking, unless it is put forth into expression through and by a person.
So it is with GOD from His Majesty and from His Omniscience. GOD is invisible and lies dormant-He lies dormant to the great Universal Scheme of things until He can put Himself forth into expression, in something visible or visibilated, or tangibilate Himself into outer expression. Hence, GOD becomes to be the PERSONIFICATION of that which He is or that which He was invisibly. The WORD is made FLESH!
GOD the Same Forever
So it does not have to be anybody particularly, and yet when it is brought to fruition it is visible and they cannot get around it. It is wonderful! But whether or not it is observed from an individual point of view or from a universal point of view or from a collective point of view, it is equivalently the same-it is the PRINCIPLE with or without a PERSON. Hence, GOD remains the same today, yesterday and forever and He accomplishes His Works according to the FAITH the people have in Him.
Some people believe GOD to be limited to a certain degree and GOD can only express Himself limitedly to such a person, but if HE is given a chance to express. by one observing Him through faith INFINITELY and UNLIMITEDLY, GOD will express Himself infinitely and unlimitedly and even OMNISCIENTLY.
Mr. Fisk: Well, you can imagine what You have given me to think about; but now when I do read these magazines that I have got where You have put forth different ideas, it is good to be personal now, isn’t it?
FATHER: Well, in a way; but it is also IMPERSONAL.
Mr. Fisk: Yes. Yes, of course.
FATHER: Because as GOD is IMPERSONAL and UNIVERSAL, the transmission of the same thought will be a reality; hence, with you the selfsame thought-you get Me?
Mr .Fisk: Yes.
Why It Is Universal
FATHER: … as I Myself can be established, and you as a person, yet not you from a mortal point of view but as a person, can be the imbiber and the transmitter of the same ideas and opinions that I AM conveying. Hence, it is universal. That is why it is UNIVERSAL; because when it is brought to fruition in one, the same as intelligence or any course we might take up in the school of learning, it is transmittable; and when the teacher conveys it to another, when they get it, it is the same in that one as it was in the first one-it is IMPERSONAL, it goes on.
Mr. Fisk: It does.
FATHER: So that is what we are endeavoring to do; to convey this Truth from person to person and from shore to shore and from land to land until all of the universe shall have been developed into this understanding and GOD will be a UNIVERSAL PROTECTION of all humanity, I mean from all hurt, from all harm and from all danger. Not only as a SUPERNATURAL PRESENCE, as things have been, but even from a PERSONAL point of view GOD will be your protection even as He was with those in Bible times when He protected them from a personal point of view; for GOD is IMPERSONAL and He has the same regard and the same respect for you as He has for any other person, if you can get to that place in consciousness where you can trust Him and rely upon Him. So it is a wonderful thought.
Mr. Fisk: It is certainly a great thought there.
Privilege of Democracy
FATHER: And having something of your own is a great thing. In a democracy such as this one, a person is privileged to travel on intellectually, mentally and spiritually because he has the privilege to serve GOD according to the dictates of his own conscience. For this cause one has a chance to bring forth. that higher ideal within his highest aspirations and his highest intuition and his highest inspirations to fruition –but if you were not allowed to do so, you could not do it effectively; but you are allowed to do so constitutionally, hence, you are granted that privilege if you are persons and determined to seek it.
Of course, conventionality even to Me could be a barrier if I would allow it to be, but I will not allow conventionality, I will not allow any other system of mortal mind’s version or versions to prohibit Me. I will not allow the barriers of diction or grammatical phrases to hinder Me, because I may desire to express from some angle just outside of either, and I may find My Words out there more effectively. I might find more power in some words that are outside of these barriers that are framed up conventionally.
Mr. Fisk: Yes. Yes.
FATHER: It is wonderful! So it is a wonderful thought to be able to comprehend and overcome conditions and circumstances and the versions of men and have a free access for expression under such a democracy as this one. That is why I stress AMERICANISM as I do; because I know whereof I speak-the freedom it giveth. The apostle spoke of it for himself as a person and said:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the SPIRIT, for the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
The Same Law Can Free Everyone
Well now, this same law is applicable to each and every person, and it is just as operative there and within each and every person if they can receive it; but Paul spoke of it of himself as a person. Now, the selfsame law must eventually free all of the people, for it was the law that was in Christ Jesus that freed him Personally from the barriers of the sepulcher and from destruction or corruption. The same one will free you and everybody if they can and will but be persistent in their ambition enough to overcome conventionality and the theories and versions and doctrines of men, and all selfishness, jealousy and fear and all of those mortal tendencies, and go -on and allow this Law to free them. Paul, before that time, was carrying a dead man around on his back; he found himself a “wretched man,” he said,
that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
conventionality, tradition, hereditive tendencies and any of those could be deemed as the dead man from an intellectual or from a, spiritual point of view. But CHRIST freed him from the dead man and he found himself victoriously a conqueror and free from condemnation, for he realized that it was Christ Jesus, the Law that was in Him, whichever, that had made him free from the law of sin and death. Hence, it is applicable and operative to and for everybody. Now, let us all apply it and we would be free from even the relationship or participation or the influence or the effect of Hitlerism and every other destructive agency of humanity.
Effect of Hitlerism
As I said today, why, we are forced in a way of speaking to feel the effect of Hitlerism. He is making everybody miserable who is not; they will all be affected by it if they are not above his field in which he is functioning; because here now, as you no doubt know and hear them say about the rationing of gasoline, every automobile for pleasure or an ordinary person will only get a few gallons of gasoline a week, or some thing like that. They are trying to make every body feel the effect of it, all through the spirit of Hitlerism, as I often say, or war or destruction, and if we live in this recognition we will master the situation; and as you say, if we’ would all live in this MIND, or have the same MIND, we would have a force for good to overcome that force for evil. You see, Hitler’s force for evil expands and makes everybody miserable, you see the mystery? If it can affect them …
Mr. Fisk: . . .on their own plane.
FATHER: That’s right. Now, if the force for good is united, if we can unite our mental and spiritual efforts and determination for Righteousness, we can cause all people to feel the effect of good even as he has caused all people to feel the effect of evil.
Why is it we have to get a half a pound of sugar a week now and all of these different hardships that even the American people have, that not only the American people but all nations have to suffer, in a way of speaking, through and by the effect of evil? Well, I say I will not allow the ” other fellow” having a body in the name of Hitler the ” other fellow” -you know what I call the ” other fellow” . . . ?
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
FATHER: . . . to be greater in his opposition than I will allow GOD HIMSELF, Me or Myself, to be in the positive direction. You see the mystery?
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
Known as GOD by Millions
FATHER: Therefore, I shall cause the effect of good to be felt in all lands and countries even as Hitler has caused the effect of evil to be felt in all lands and countries, and I shall over come the effect of Hitler if I have to do it consciously in Myself, knowing, if Hitler is the ” other fellow, ” I AM known to be GOD by millions!
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
FATHER: So the effect of GOD shall over come the effect and the effects of the enemy, because he has made himself felt in every land and country economically and socially and morally; and shall cause the effect of GOOD to go forth as the noonday, yea, and as the LIGHT of day when it cometh forth from the east, and make the things known unto the wise, and it is done almost instantaneously. The effect of Good can go forth just as good as the direct effect of evil can, and if the effect of evil comes through a man, how about tile effect of good?
Mr. Fisk: Yes.
FATHER: We must be able to take a stand and be as radical righteously and for righteousness’ sake, as Hitlerism and all of the enemies of our democracies are radical for unrighteousness’ sake and for wickedness. They take a stand and the spirit of them is going forth affecting everybody, even if they are not conscious of it. They may not have been conscious of the influence that that wicked spirit in them would have to disturb the peace and happiness and good will of all nations and even almost every person. The effect of good shall go forth and shall dispel such as the effect of evil has established. I need not say more.
Mr. Fisk: It is a great honor.
FATHER: – Well, I am pleased to see you, Mr. Fisk; pleased to have met you, and if you can but observe these things, insignificant as I may apparently be-just take Me along with you in consciousness and in consideration-My SPIRIT will be with you and you will feel the effect of GOD from that angle of expression in opposition to Hitlerism. So we will overcome the spirit of that kind.
Mr. Fisk: Certainly.
Mr. Fisk: Thank You, Father