Father Divine grants interview to Mr. Calvin C. Rumph, University Student
In his private office study of the Peace Center & Nazareth Mission Home for the Aged, Church and Training school, Inc. of New York 13-17 W 128th street New York City on Sunday afternoon July 23, 1950 at 4:45 p.m.
Mr. Rumph: Peace, FATHER.
FATHER: Peace. What might be your name, please?
Mr. Rumph: Calvin Rumph. I am a university student here atColumbiaUniversityand I have been very deeply impressed by the work YOU are doing here in this City. I had never seen YOU before I came to this city, and I would like for YOU to give me information as to how I might obtain information of the WORK YOU are doing of the Peace Mission. I have been unable to obtain favorable information in the libraries, but I do have the Peace Mission paper of the Work YOU are doing, and I find The NEW DAY paper very current. I have been trying to find material, but the material they have in the libraries of YOU and YOUR WORK is most unfavorable, so I thought maybe YOU could give me information as to YOUR WORK.
FATHER: Did you ever read the Bible?
Mr. Rumph: Yes, SIR, I read the Bible.
FATHER: I know we are in a Gospel land and Bible country, and you are supposed to be scholastically inclined; in other words, studious yourself; it looks like you would read the Bible. The Bible is MY Foundation. You will get more from the King James version of the Bible of MY Teaching.
Mr. Rumph: King James version of the Bible?
FATHER: Yes, King James version of the Bible.
Mr. Rumph: Very well, FATHER.
FATHER: The English Bible.
Mr. Rumph: Yes, FATHER. The trouble is this, the paper— the research paper I am doing, it is required and in order to get approval for research paper, we have to get so many references. Now I can get references from the Bible concerning YOUR Teaching and so forth, but I thought maybe some of the immediate followers may have written of some of the things YOU have done so I can refer to it in my paper. YOU understand, the problem FATHER; for reference it is required that we have so many references to refer to, like magazines and papers; and there are some magazines in the library which are unfavorable, and I was told to ask YOU and YOU could give me some reference.
FATHER: The different individuals may give their version, but without the right concept of the TRUTH, it profits little or nothing.
Mr. Rumph: I understand that, FATHER.
FATHER: There are many revised versions of the Bible; there are many different versions of individuals; some have given the version of GOD and depict GOD and describe GOD in their versions or version as a Spirit without bodily form, but incorruptible and undefiled; and some have described and depicted GOD as ONE WHO was made FLESH and dwelt among men! The different versions of individuals do not say or show that it would be logical or profitable to the individual unless they can depict GOD the MOST PERFECT expression for the reproduction of the Nature and the Characteristics of GOD in their persons.
Mr. Rumph: Yes, thank YOU, FATHER.
FATHER: If you take cognizance of MY MESSAGE, a GREATER picture may be reproduced of ME in your likeness!
Mr. Rumph: I have been deeply impressed. I have been very deeply impressed. As a matter of fact, that is one of the reasons I would like to refer to someone else.
FATHER: Well, the great thing, if you are deeply impressed and if you are interested you should seek ME mentally and spiritually.
Mr. Rumph: That is for my own personal welfare, FATHER? That is good.
FATHER: For the world!
Mr. Rumph: But for the university it is required, FATHER, documental information. I have got to submit from ten to twelve documents for research work. For example, if I was to write about the Peace Mission . . .
FATHER: Well, how can you limit GOD?
Mr. Rumph: I don’t seek to limit YOU, FATHER.
FATHER: I mean, how can you define GOD if you are speaking of seeking to learn of ME?
Mr. Rumph: But haven’t some written of GOD’S Works?
FATHER: Yes, but how far do they go? They are limited, but GOD IS INFINITE! Man is finite, but GOD is INFINITE!
Mr. Rumph: I understand that, FATHER.
FATHER: You understand it theoretically, but I want you to know it inspirationally, conscientiously and in reality, that you might not seek to define ME by the versions of men, for they are limited, but if you seek ME diligently, you may find ME within you.
Mr. Rumph: Thank YOU, FATHER. That is quite clear, but in conclusion, FATHER, I cannot get documental information by men, of GOD’S WORK!
FATHER: Well, this which is commonly known as the Peace Mission Movement is only in consideration by those who are trying to fathom ME out as something that has a beginning! GOD is without the beginning of days and without the end of Life! That you know theoretically.
Mr. Rumph: I do.
FATHER: But from whence cometh theory? I came to teach wisdom transcending all theories and doctrines of men!
Mr. Rumph: Thank YOU, FATHER.
FATHER: For it is written of ME:
“These things are hid from the wise and
prudent, but revealed to babes.”
So then, one cannot fathom ME out effectively justifiably by going by what some mortal man’s version was in his finite, limited prejudice and bigotry motivated by selfish aggrandizement! He cannot fathom or fine ME! They all should seek ME diligently from a mental and spiritual point of view!
I tell MY clients and MY students and MY adherents and MY patients, whomsoever they may be that are seeking ME— they are seeking ME daily— I say, it is not necessary to contact ME Personally, but if you contact ME mentally and spiritually, conscientiously and sincerely, sympathetically and harmoniously, I will reach your condition, whatsoever your condition may be and will adjust matters satisfactorily, for it is written of ME:
“It is not by power nor by might, but
by MY SPIRIT, says the LORD.”
That is EMPHATIC!
Mr. Rumph: Well, FATHER, pardon me, have YOUR Peace Movements an origin? When did they begin, SIR?
FATHER: Well, that is the thought of it. You cannot define the INFINITE SPIRIT nor the INIFINITE MIND, but historically speaking, you might speak of GOD from an historical point of view and you might say, Scripturally as recorded prophetically and Biblically, GOD moved out upon the face of the water and said:
“Let there be light and there was light.”
There is where man began!
Mr. Rumph: The Peace Movement?
FATHER: There is where man began and there is where GOD began according to the mortal versions of men, but that was just four thousand and four years B. J., better known as four thousand and four years B. C.
Mr. Rumph: And that was the origin of the Peace Movement? Is that right, FATHER?
FATHER: I AM TALKING ABOUT GOD! I AM speaking historically now from all of the religions. Religiously speaking or historically speaking from our present religious civilization in which we are now living, four thousand and four years B. J., better known as B. C.
Mr. Rumph: Well, FATHER, can YOU help me please, on the Peace Movement?
FATHER: The Peace Movement is the Movement of GOD!
Mr. Rumph: And it always was and it always will be? Is that right, FATHER?
FATHER: It has no beginning and has no ending!
Mr. Rumph: That is quite clear.
FATHER: And I AM trying to show you concerning it.
Mr. Rumph: Now, the purpose of the Peace Movement?
FATHER: Now the purpose of the Peace Movement, I AM trying to show you the significance of GOD on earth among men! GOD infinitely existing, or GOD’S EXISTIENCE or OMNIPRESENCE . . . the Creation began at a certain time, four thousand and four years, B.J…. If it was four thousand and four years before JESUS, better known by the intelligent people as B. C., the so-called intelligent people think it was before CHRIST when nothing was before CHRIST! CHRIST is INCORRUPTIBLE and UNDEFILED and FADETH NOT AWAY! But I say, B.J., before JESUS, JESUS being the PERSONFICATION of CHRIST; in other words, the PERSON of CHRIST in the VIRGIN coming; therefore, it was so many years before JESUS, but not before CHRIST, for CHRIST is SPIRIT and you cannot define HIM! You cannot limit HIM to mortality’s version!
Mr. Rumph: Well, FATHER, I can see what has been going on at this Peace Mission. I can see the works of the Peace Mission; but people do write about this Peace Mission. Can YOU refer me to the good works of this Peace Mission?
FATHER: MY MESSAGE daily to some extent is printed in the The NEW DAY verbatim. Harmonious of course, and favorable. Not controversially, but harmoniously and favorably because they know or believe that what I say is just and right; in other words, is accurate and they do not believe that they should pervert it!
Mr. Rumph: Is there another periodical that carries what YOU say and what YOU do, of YOUR WORKS? Each week I buy The NEW DAY and I shall refer to The NEW DAY, but is there any additional material other than The NEW DAY?
FATHER: Do you want to find the beginning of a man or do you want to find out the beginning of GOD?
Mr. Rumph: Sure, the beginning of GOD as YOU have stated is INFINITE; IT always was and always will be! GOD cannot be understood on a mortal plane. GOD is INFINITE!
FATHER: Well, that is what I AM trying to tell you!
Mr. Rumph: And on the other hand, will YOU help me, SIR? The mortal then, was the mortal beginning of the Peace Movement?
FATHER: We are not advocating, emphasizing, and we are not bearing record of mortality and we are not bearing record according to mortality’s version!
Mr. Rumph: Then it would be impossible, FATHER, for me to write a research paper on YOUR Movement!
FATHER: I think it would be impossible to try unless you can get it from the within!
Mr. Rumph: As a student, I must fulfill the promise.
FATHER: Now, so many people are trying to write of ME, trying to measure ME with the measure of man!
Mr. Rumph: No, FATHER, I don’t intend to do that. I wouldn’t attempt to.
FATHER: Well, that is what you are theoretically — in other words, intellectually trying to do; trying to measure GOD with the measurement of man, but I said in the Book of Revelation, “Even the temple could not be measured!”
Mr. Rumph: FATHER, false doctrines are being taught; and as I said— I am really a college student fromHanoverUniversity, and I have only been atColumbiaUniversityfor three weeks, and the opinions of YOU that I have read and heard, and what some of the fellows have said, are quite unfavorable. The few articles that are available of YOU and YOUR WORK are most unfavorable, I have discovered in my research. When I first visited theMissionhere I was very deeply impressed. I thought what I read and heard was true until I saw for myself, and now since I have been here, I have seen nothing but good works! I don’t think others have been so fortunate as me to come here and see!
FATHER: Well, you take someone who does not know anything about ME, they cannot tell the TRUTH about ME— that one that doesn’t know anything about it!
Mr. Rumph: And yet they speak, SIR.
Mr. Rumph: And yet they speak.
FATHER: I regret I AM in a hurry, but I thought to convey that thought to you, while yet I wanted or will give you reference to something that you might consider that cannot be refuted and cannot be justifiably disputed.
Mr. Rumph: The NEW DAY, FATHER, YOU mean?
FATHER: No, not The NEW DAY.
Mr. Rumph: The Bible?
FATHER: I first told you the Bible, but I AM speaking of your reference to ME from a personal point of view. I AM speaking of your reference to ME from a personal point of view.
Mr. Rumph: I want to define YOUR WORKS! I have seen YOUR WORKS!
FATHER: How can you see MY WORKS unless you see ME? If you want reference to ME from a personal point of view, Dr. Charles Braden, a professor of religion, studied ME and was with ME. You may find some information he has received in his book.
Mr. Rumph: Dr. Braden?
FATHER: Yes, while yet I do not consider any man can rightfully measure GOD— the breadth and the width and the height and depths of the TRUTH, but as it is accepted as a message of truth, his writings . . .
Mr. Rumph: May I write Dr. Braden?
FATHER: Yes, you may, and also Dr. Marcus Bach.
Mr. Rumph: Thank YOU, FATHER.
FATHER: I AM just giving you this, Mr. Rumph, I AM just giving you this as you are a young man trying to make it, since this you have been called upon to research.
Mr. Rumph: I appreciate that FATHER, very much.
FATHER: I AM doing that for your sake, that you might be able to gain some information, because the TRUTH often is closed to the public concerning things that may concern you, especially if anyone is doing what I AM doing, breaking that line of demarcation and bringing an absolute obliteration to localization!
Mr. Rumph: YOU are doing a wonderful WORK!
FATHER: That is what I AM Actually doing, and a good many people do not like it, both pro and con, both of the light-complexioned people and dark-complexioned people. But I have brought an end to localization and brought an end to that line of demarcation! I gave President Truman that proposal for the Civil Rights Law and by inspiration with it he was impregnated and he couldn’t get it out of him!
Mr. Rumph: That’s wonderful!
FATHER: Here is the Message I gave him before he passed on that law! It is wonderful!
Mr. Rumph: It is wonderful!
FATHER: I have people coming to ME from all parts of the world, from every walk of life, seeking MY blessings. Some are seeking healings; some may make a confession, but as I say, if they contact ME conscientiously and sincerely, sympathetically and harmoniously, democratically and evangelically, they will get results if they have faith in so doing. To make a long story short, this is one of MY proposals to bring an end to the prospect of war before this last world war began. You might read that if you don’t mind, just briefly. I would like to hear you read it. (Mr. Rumph reads, as follows, the Green Peace Stamp:)
“PEACE to the WORLD at LARGE”
Cables to chancellor Hitler, Prime Minister Chamberlain, Premier Daladier, Pres. Benes, Pres. Roosevelt, Sept. 20, 1938 A.D.F.D. “Why not propose purchase of coveted Czechoslovakian territory, with Sudetens helping to pay for annexation, substituting co-operation and Peace for terrible inhuman warfare consequences?”
“It is my CONVICTION that ALL PEOPLE under the threat of war today PRAY that PEACE may be made BEFORE, rather than AFTER war.”
FATHER: Well, the first part is what I said. I had proposed the purchase of coveted Czechoslovakian territory, substituting Peace and Unity and the Sudetens to help pay for annexation; and substituting Peace and Unity for inhuman warfare consequences. This was given on September 20, 1938.
Mr. Rumph: This is very helpful, FATHER! This is very helpful.
FATHER: Well, I have sent out many proposals. These were cablegrams and telegrams I sent out and many of them, I just published the gist of them, the headlines or the subject as aforesaid, as it may be deemed, in a Stamp that might be lasting.
Mr. Rumph: That was wonderful.
FATHER: Now here is the first one, if you don’t mind stepping over here. That is the one you read. Here is the next one; and that was one where I proposed the Unification of the Three Americas, etc. I sent messages to the different governments, of that proposal. This was “Everybody Buy Bonds,” and then came that, and that and that. (FATHER shows Mr. Rumph all of HIS Peace Stamps in their successive order in which they come.)
Mr. Rumph: It is wonderful!
FATHER: And to the President of the United States of Today, that is what I proposed.
Mr. Rumph: (Reading):
June 11, 1947 A.D.F.D.
TO THE PRESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES OF TODAY:
I appeal to you and every Representative and Senator in accord— for the Salvation of yourselves and your subjects here and at large, you had better make Laws immediately to bring an end to segregation and discrimination and to bring an end to the rights of states that are unconstitutional to have their Sovereign rights.
I appeal to the Federal Government and its Representatives to cross the borders of all Sovereign states and break every state law that is unconstitutional such as those of many of the states of theUnion. The time is out for that!
—REV. M. J. DIVINE, Ms. D.
(Better known as FATHER DIVINE)
Mr. Rumph: That is wonderful, FATHER. No fault can be found of that at all! Why is it men speak unfavorably of YOU?
FATHER: Well, naturally, it is written of ME: “HE shall stir up jealously as a man of war.” Socially, even if I was to say it, it may not seem to be intellectually, but socially, and I can say intellectually, scientifically and racially, politically and legalistically and financially, they can be jealous of ME because MY followers have unlimited purchasing power, though I do not own anything!
Mr. Rumph: That is wonderful!
FATHER: But I caused many to be rich! I came as the poorest among men, yet making many rich!
Mr. Rumph: That is wonderful: That is a Mystery. FATHER, isn’t that so?
FATHER: It is a Mystery. So they cannot understand because they are jealous. As a rule, MY staff of stenographers go with ME everywhere I go. There is a number of them here today, about ten or fifteen or twenty, and they can’t see how I can do these things!
Mr. Rumph: I see.
FATHER: They can’t see how I can serve banquets second to none the universe over!
Mr. Rumph: That is true, FATHER.
FATHER: And they can’t see how MY followers can be successful and prosperous in business, profession, labor and trade; how they can have such places as the Riviera Hotel over here in Newark, New Jersey, and pay five hundred and fifty thousand dollars cash for it at once, and allow people to live in such a first-rate hotel as that and other hotels at two dollars and fifty cents a week, with MY COMPLIMENTS! That is why I do not compromise with mortality and carnality’s version when they rise in opposition, because they have NOTHING TO OFFER!
Mr. Rumph: That is quite true, FATHER.
FATHER: It is wonderful! So there have been many different proposals. (FATHER then takes a little booklet of Peace Stamps from HIS Desk and says:) This is a little booklet that was made up as a placecard for the Forth Anniversary of MY MARRIAGE.
Mr. Rumph: Yes, SIR.
FATHER: I was looking for the First Anniversary Placecard, but I don’t see any. Now that was the Third Anniversary from nineteen forty-nine and those are a good many of the Stamps there in line as I gave them. Now that is a V-Letter reduced to the smallest size. You can’t read that without a magnifying glass; but it is a V-Letter. I mean the original is enlarged, in its natural size. It is a message I sent to Hirohito to surrender unconditionally about four months before the ATOM BOMB dropped inJapan.
Mr. Rumph: FATHER, there are a good many waiting and I just can’t afford to keep those many waiting. Thank YOU, FATHER.
FATHER: Well, I got interested in this.
Mr. Rumph: It is wonderful! Well, I shall write to YOU.
FATHER: You may, and if you come toPhiladelphia, I may have a lot more time to speak with you. Do you have the Pendulum of Equilibrium Stamp?
Mr. Rumph: Yes, I have.
FATHER: That is what I AM calling for, and whatsoever I AM going to do. I AM GOING TO DO. AND I AM NOT ASKING THE PEOPLE TO DO IT! Now concerning the books I mentioned, Dr. Marcus Bach wrote of ME, “They Have Found a Faith”, and Dr. Braden, I believe wrote, “These also Believe.”
Mr. Rumph: May I write that down?
FATHER: Now each of these are professors of religion. I mean, they are professors in colleges.
Mr. Rumph: I see.
FATHER: But Professor Braden, he was with ME. He studied ME, each of them. (FATHER hands Mr. Rumph a Peace Stamp, “To the President of the United States of Today, and says:) I think this is the one that I stressed in the beginning about crossing the state lines, to propose that the Federal Government cross the State lines and break every unconstitutional constitution of the unconstitutional states, because there are some unconstitutional states in theUnion! The very constitution of some of the states will not protect every citizen’s rights because of the complexion and so on like that. So I said, BREAK THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL CONSTITUTIONS OF THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL STATES AND REFUSE TO ALLOW THEM TO HAVE THEIR SOVERIGN RIGHTS! Each state claims his right to his own sovereignty, but it is under the Government, the Federal Government that we should have a Federal Law to control all of the unconstitutional constitutions of the different states of theUnion.
Mr. Rumph: Peace, FATHER. That is wonderful.
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