Interview granted by Father Divine to Prof. Robert E. Hume of Union Theological Seminary in his office at 20 West 115th street New York City on Sunday, February 23, 1936 at about 5:00 p.m.
Professor Hume, learning that FATHER would be in the City today, availed himself of the opportunity to be present among us. FATHER graciously invited him to have something to say, if he so desired and condescendingly set aside about three quarters of an hour or more from HIS usual busy program, to grant him an interview. Professor Hume accepted this gracious invitation to address the audience, stating that he had come to see FATHER and to learn from HIM whatever he possibly could. He further stated that the world was in such a turmoil at the present time and that he was interested in every effort and work of Peace that tended or was working towards the establishment of the Kingdom of GOD on earth.
Professor Hume had prepared a questionnaire which he used to ask FATHER certain questions, which he said he desired to get chronological records and data to pass on to his students, with reference to the origin of the Peace Mission, its activities and its growth. The questions which were asked by the Professor and the answers given him by FATHER are herewith recorded, as follows:
1. What was the origin of this Movement?
2. What was the nearest preparation which led to the launching of the Peace Movement?
3. What have been the outstanding features in the subsequent history?
4. What is anticipated as the next notable accomplishment in this Peace Kingdom?
5. What are the essential features of this Movement?
6. Have there been some misunderstandings in the reports of this Movement? And how have they been cleared by better knowledge? How have they been corrected?
7. Are there any genuine difficulties or dangers or adversaries which this Movement confronts?
8. What is the closest parallel to the past history of Religion in comparison with this Peace Movement?
9. Where can authentic data be obtained for an adequate knowledge of this Peace Movement?
10. What is the relation of this Movement to the Bible?
11. What is the relationship of this Movement to Jesus Christ?
12. What is the theology involved in this Movement?
13. How is the organization of disciples and coworkers being built up to take care of the growing Movement?
14. What co-operation has already been accomplished with any other similar movements?
15. What are the planks in the Platform as inscribed on the walls of the Temple?
Professor Hume: FATHER I came both to seek and to give information.
FATHER: “We are very glad to have you to participate in our Meetings, to speak or sing or anything you desire, just so you are governed by your highest intuition. We are always pleased to have visitors and we desire them to participate by singing or speaking, if they would like to, or have a word to say, if they feel so led.”
Professor Hume: I felt that YOU were very friendly indeed, FATHER.
FATHER’S Work Spontaneous
FATHER: Of course, it is a little difficult to adequately answer many questions that may be placed before ME, from — what we may term it to be, from a human point, as MY Work is spontaneous. I speak spontaneously — just as I did a little while ago, and yet I AM writing daily and I AM releasing to the press as much as they can receive at this age. Many of them have declared I AM at least fifty years ahead of time.
Professor Hume: FATHER, how can we catch up?
The Relaxation of the Conscious Mentality
FATHER: It is the privilege of each and every individual to unify himself or themselves with ME, by the relaxation of the conscious mentality, by becoming as a little child as said the Master, by becoming as a little child, by being converted; deny himself or themselves as individuals completely. The reaction of such will come forth, will cause the resurrection of the Christ within the individual, to inspire them and to bring them in unity with ME. See that is the mystery! Jesus said, “Has not God hid these things from the wise and the prudent and revealed them to babes and sucklings?” It would be a matter of impossibility for the Gospel to be true, if wise men, after the manner of men, according to the intellectual world, had the Truths, as they are, but as men, they are intelligent.
By the relaxation of the conscious mentality and all of your ego and every mortal version completely, all of the theories and doctrines of men, GOD will rise in you spontaneously, as I explained in MY Lecture a little while ago. GOD is Ever Present and is willing and ready to react, but is not something new, as the wise man said… “There is nothing new under the sun.” It is merely new to those who have not awakened to the consciousness of Truth as it is.
History of the Movement
Professor Hume: When did this newness come into history? What one event would YOU say, is outstanding?
FATHER: The one outstanding event, was when Jesus came as a Person.
Professor Hume: And subsequently?
FATHER: It has been in existence ever since.
Professor Hume: In this immediate Movement — when? There was a time, was there not, when YOU initiated the Movement?
FATHER: I do not say that there was.
Professor Hume: I am a Professor of History. I will have to give subsequently the events and dates, following the existence of this Movement, I will have to pass this on to MY students.
FATHER: I do not keep dates, after the manner of men.
Professor Hume: But YOU are making history!
FATHER: In recent years, I have condescended to write as a man.
Professor Hume: Where can I find some of these records? Do YOU have them compiled, FATHER DIVINE?
FATHER: We are giving it out daily.
Professor Hume: I have to tell students that this Movement started at such and such a date.
FATHER: As a Professor, you may understand, I just said, “the relaxation of the conscious mentality,” —to still one’s self individually, collectively, is the main essential. The human mind can never find the hidden things or the mysteries of GOD. That is the great thought. The average person has striven to measure GOD with the measure of a man.
Professor Hume: But we are in the limitation of time and outstanding events.
FATHER: According to life time, you sum yourself up in life — in the life of a man. You only know yourselves as human beings, by what you believe or what you learn.
Professor Hume: This body came into existence on the Twentieth Day of March 1877… What is the next big event in this Peace Mission?
The Divine Version of Life
FATHER: The least we know of ourselves according to the flesh, the more we may know of GOD.
Professor Hume: Indeed it is wonderful.
FATHER: The least we know from a geographical or material or physical point of view, as I explained a little while ago in MY Lecture — when man “extreme-ates” himself, GOD will appear. The Eternal Spirit will teach Wisdom more than our conscious mentality can conceive or receive. The conscious mentality cannot conceive the idea of Perfection more than the person of what GOD will teach. GOD will teach wisdom, as our minds are relaxed, but the more we know from a human point of view, the least we can know of GOD.
Professor Hume: Still we are in history? Jesus bore record.
FATHER: It was so according to history and according to the versions of men, but Jesus declared, “Before Abraham was I AM.” Therefore, Jesus the Christ as the Fundamental, could not deteriorate or lower His Standard of thinking to lower down to the measure of man, neither would He condescend to allow them to place Him under their versions, because they said He was born just after John, but Jesus said: “Before Abraham was, I AM.”
John was bound by the versions of men. No doubt, he doubted Jesus after he baptized Him. Because he doubted Jesus, it didn’t cause Jesus, although being younger, according to man’s version, to deteriorate His Standard of thinking. He thought vividly and Supremely in His High Thought with the FATHER. He refused to lower His Standard of thinking. That is why He was Omnipotent. That is why He was GOD.
Fundamental Truth in All Religions
Professor Hume: In the stream of human history, there are eleven Religions that have lasted one hundred years — many others have died. Would this be number twelve, or how will it connect Itself with the remaining subsequent Movements?
FATHER: I do not bear record whether you heard ME explain how GOD as being like unto the little honey bee…
Professor Hume: No, where can I find that?
FATHER: As I was saying, there was a story I told concerning the Kingdom of GOD being like unto the honey bee. I do not bear record in just what Message that is recorded.
Professor Hume: Would YOUR Secretaries be able to get that for me?
FATHER: I doubt whether they could offhandedly. I know they would be glad to get it, if they could.
I have declared from every Religious Movement, since the beginning of the Religious era, we find the Spirit and the substance coming from each and every one of them. We are not confined nor bound to any special Religious group or Religious Dispensation, not even to the Christian Dispensation, but as representatives of the Fundamentals of life, through and from all organizations, from all Religions, I AM as a little honey bee, drawing the substance from every flower, even though they be sweet or bitter or sour, I can and I will draw the substance from the flowers and I will make out of it, the sweetest of the sweetest, which is the Kingdom of GOD on Earth, where all have so long been seeking. See that is the mystery.
Now I AM drawing from every Religion and I recognize the Truth and the good in all Religions, see! While they may not recognize it in ME, but as the Apostle said on one occasion: “Prove yourselves workmen that needeth not to be ashamed.”
I can understand all saints and I can understand where they stand, although the majority of them do not understand where I stand.
Professor Hume: Can we say this is the proper summation of what is going to be? Would that be a fair statement?
FATHER: That is what we are endeavoring to do, to get out of all the Religions and those who are non-religious, the Essence of all that which is Right and Good, that which may be termed the Soul, the Good of all things.
Professor Hume: May it be said in the future, this will substitute all preliminaries…all that has taken place?
The Perfect Day
FATHER: It is according to the Scripture or the Gospel, “The Path of the Just glows brighter and brighter until the PERFECT Day.” “HE taketh away the first to establish the second.” Of course the second expression or version of man, but to ME it is the same.
Professor Hume: Would not the historians seek this information?
FATHER: They may be, but we are not living in time and Season.
They will undoubtedly, as the true Light comes to them, but as they relax their conscious mentality, GOD will lift them from that state of expression. I know within MYSELF, it is a matter of impossibility for Truth to fail, even though it may be developed in an individual who may be a failure. The individual may fail, but Truth goes on.
Professor Hume: What could be the answer in a sentence — the origin, from the beginning, from a historical point of view?
FATHER: From a historical point of view, we may speak after the manner of men — as Spirit without a BODY, when the Spirit moved out on the face of the deep, according to the Bible.
Professor Hume: When was that?
FATHER: According to Bible History—Four Thousand and Four Years, B. J. better known as B. C.
Professor Hume: At the present time, what was the present manifestation?
FATHER: The present manifestation — we are not bearing record of it. Paul said,
“Forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before and press on toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”
Historians may not regard this, they may not, because they are living in mortal consciousness. I would not condescend to come to the theories and versions and doctrines of men…
Professor Hume: It would not be improper to say, YOU are making history?
FATHER: Humanly speaking, it may be, but I AM not bearing record of your personal beginning. I AM not bearing any record of MY Personal beginning.
Professor Hume: How can others?
FATHER: I forbid them.
Professor Hume: What is the nearest preparation leading to this great Work?
FATHER: The nearest preparation and most exact, was in the Person of Jesus and in the Body of Jesus nineteen hundred years ago, the Example, the Perfect Picture in His Day. Those who copied after His Fashion, found themselves bringing into their individual beings, the same Characteristics and Nature and Disposition of the Christ.
Professor Hume: Jesus of Nazareth Himself, said John was the forerunner. Has there been any similar preparation?
FATHER: Jesus was the true Wayshower, the very Foundation of this Establishment.
Professor Hume: What has been the outstanding feature — something has been accomplished, but I do not know them all — the accomplishments. I explained my ignorance, but I am eager to learn.
FATHER: It is as I aforesaid — as a Professor you come to ME as a student and MY first Lesson to teach, as One to teach a student in this Light of Understanding was, and still is, the relaxation of the conscious mentality. Now the relaxation of the conscious mentality would be to still the conscious mind and allow the Spirit of GOD to reveal within. Now this is what the student does not usually want to do — to relax the conscious mentality.
Professor Hume: Well we still have to take food.
FATHER: Well such is the food of the soul. The first step to be made, and Jesus made this plain, only in a different language to what I AM now speaking: I said, “The relaxation of the conscious mentality, is but the re-conception of GOD’S Omniscience.” The very Wisdom of GOD will reveal itself in the mind of the individual who will relax his conscious mentality and nextly Jesus said it in a different version,
“If you hear of any man seeking or inquiring after me, tell him, I said, first deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.”
We cannot find GOD in the human way. We have to find GOD and His Mysteries according to HIS Way, HIS Plan and HIS Purpose. He said,
“Has not GOD hid these things from the prudent and revealed them unto babes and sucklings?”
It is a matter of impossibility to get the mystery through human culture and study. We get it through relaxation. I may tell you something in order to get you away from ME, or try to satisfy the conscious mind, but I want to tell you something that you may come where I AM. When you relax the conscious mentality, GOD in turn, for all of your vocabulary, will give you a vocabulary unsurpassed and unmeasured by all humanity.
Professor Hume: What are the essential features?
FATHER: That is the answer. Where does HE get so much money from? This is the question in the minds of many. Now look at this crowd here around ME, (and the Office was filled with the Angels who had followed FATHER up from the Banquet Table.) Now this is the answer. I cannot keep them away from ME, unless I Personally drive them away. Now we may hold Meetings until around about three or four o’clock in the morning, they may come up here to the Office, they come seeking a Word, of which they claim to be the Word and the Words of Life.
The majority of the leaders cannot get the people to follow them. The majority of people are not seeking money as much as they would desire to have this influence. “Where does HE get it?” Where do I get it? It comes through the relaxation of the conscious mentality. By creating an Atmosphere — the Atmosphere of GOD’S Presence — the Consciousness of it, they are conscious of it and this conscious recognition creates an atmosphere.
Professor Hume: I wish it were possible to get some of the records of YOUR work.
FATHER: At times, I regret if I could regret, that MY Mission and MY Work cannot be outlined as an ordinary person’s work can.
Professor Hume: Is there anything further I can say to pass on to my fellow-Christian Ministers?
FATHER: I think if you care to attend our meetings from time to time, I take no thought of what I AM going to say, fulfilling the Scripture. When I say, “Live Evangelically,” or “Live an Evangelical Life,” I mean live exactly according to what Jesus said. He said, “Take no thought,” but as I move spontaneously, you will get something to give to your students.
I appreciate your visit and I hope you will come when the Spirit will move on ME to speak and not only ME, but others. It is not confined. You will get all you can write about. You will get real facts.
Professor Hume: May I come again FATHER DIVINE and bring over some of my friends and fellow-Christian Ministers?
FATHER: We would be glad to have them at any time.
Professor Hume: If an invitation were extended to YOU, do YOU think YOU would accept it?
FATHER: I was not speaking of MYSELF. However, I would be glad to have you come and bring them here.
Professor Hume: That would be your preference? Would YOU come to speak to a group, if YOU were invited?
FATHER: Sometime I may be glad to come where you are.
Professor Hume: I thought if YOU were so disposed, it would be a great pleasure to have some Ministers to meet YOU.
FATHER: As you see here I AM busy all of the time. A little while ago, when I went down to the Banquet Table, I had not even had breakfast.
Professor Hume: What about prayer? What do YOU teach concerning prayer?
FATHER: “Prayer is the sincere desire of the heart, unuttered or unexpressed.” When you pray, enter into your secret closet.” Even before the Coming of Christ in the Person of Jesus to the individual, prayer had been taught by Moses — what we should pray. We do not go through the performance of prayer.
Professor Hume: Is that because they are not in YOUR Presence?
FATHER: I feel that it is not necessary. We believe that prayer is the heart’s sincere desire. If we sincerely desire anything, we can relax our personal conscious mentality and by having faith and substantiated confidence, we get the results.
(With a few personal remarks, the interview concluded and FATHER again resumed HIS Work, which never ends…)
II PETER, CHAPTER 1, VERSES 4-8
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and
precious promises: that by these ye might be par-
takers of the Divine Nature, having escaped the
corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your
faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance
patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brother-
ly kindness charity;
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they
make you that ye shall neither be barren nor un-
fruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Leave a Reply