Father Divine’s Interview with three ministers: Rev. Asbury Stromberg, N.Y. East Methodist Conference, Rev. J. E. Bell, Vancouver, B.C. Rev. J. S. Bonnell, Winnipeg, Manitoba at Father’s private office at 20 W. 115th Street, New York City, N. Y. on Sunday, May 31, 1936 at 9:00 p.m.
Among the thousands who pressed their way into FATHER’S New York City Headquarters, were visitors from many different parts of the world, including one from far-away Korea. One who came and waited long for a Personal interview with FATHER, was the Reverend Asbury Stromberg, of the New York East Methodist Conference. He sad the various branches of the Methodist Church, such as the M. E. and the A. M. E., and others, were attempting to come together and eradicate such divisions, but certain factions strongly opposed such action because of racial prejudice. This, he wanted to discuss with FATHER.
Before this interview was reached in the midst of FATHER’S many Personal Activities, however, two Ministers from Canada arrived, seeking to contact FATHER Personally. These were Rev. J. E. Bell of Vancouver, B. C., who said he had visited the Peace Mission in Vancouver, and Rev. J. S. Bonnell of Winnipeg, Manitoba. In order to save time it was agreed that the three Ministers should see FATHER together, and after Rev. Stromberg had discussed with FATHER briefly, the proposed unification of the Methodist Church, the following conversation took place:
FATHER: I cannot Say how others feel about it, but I feel it is a great step towards bringing about the Universal Brotherhood of man for which we all are contending.
Rev. Stromberg: People in YOUR Work have no race consciousness.
FATHER: Well, they have forgotten it, to go that far.
Rev. Stromberg: They must.
FATHER: I recalled just then, one of MY Followers testified last evening in one of our demonstrations — where, before he knew ME — he took a handkerchief out of his pocket and he said before he knew ME he would not even use a handkerchief like that. It was a white handkerchief, don’t you know. He said he had so much prejudice he did not want anything that was CALLED white. But since that time he has learned to love every man the same, and risen above races, creeds and colors and such mortal limited conceptions or expressions as that, and he can declare now his at-one-ment with his Maker because he recognizes the at-one-ment with his fellow brethren. We cannot be one with GOD unless we are willing to be one with our fellow brother.
Rev. Stromberg: FATHER, may I ask YOU one other question? What do YOU teach of evil, its nature, and the reality of it? Is it personal?
FATHER: It is impersonal. Yes, it is impersonal, but of course, such impersonal influences can be incarnated in individuals, and the impersonal influence can influence the persons that are brought into subjection to such influences — but it is impersonal.
Rev. Stromberg: Would YOU say that evil is what happens to us when we are away from GOD, or is it something more positive than that? When we go away from GOD do we come into something else that is real, that is evil, or is it just the separation from GOD?
FATHER: That is it — it is the separation from GOD. There is no reality in that which is termed evil, in the proper sense of the word. When we are in perfect harmony with GOD and in the conscious Presence of GOD, or consciously in the Presence of GOD — with such a recognition we find these seeming evils have no longer an existence or reality to those who see themselves in perfect harmony with GOD. But we can incarnate such an idea — as I was telling a party the other day. I Said, “The very idea” is a common phrase quite often used here in America. “The idea!” It is an idea the person has conceived, and that idea is made real according to the way he sees it to be. He makes an idea that is unreal, real to him, if he believes it is real. But those of us who have risen above those limited concepts of things, we refuse to allow those things that are known as evil, to be real to us. We take away the realness of the evil influence of those conditions and expressions, and we establish the reverse of those expressions of evil. Therefore, the good will result in that in which evil was expressed or reflected.
Rev. Stromberg: Now may I ask one more question? Jerome Davis, a lovely soul, head of the Social Service in Memphis, speaks of the relation of races to one another. He has no prejudice and no hatred. He is free, and he says as soon as we can become free from those, there is nothing any longer which would make it that we could not inter-marry and be one family. What do YOU teach on that question?
FATHER: Well, that is true as far as that is concerned, but yet to produce the quality of CHRIST, according to MY Version, one must deny himself or themselves of human affections. Regardless of whether it be races, creeds or colors connected or intermingling, all such should be denied, according to MY Version.
Rev. Stromberg: They don’t exist?
FATHER: They don’t exist in this CHRIST CONSCIOUSNESS, you see.
Rev. Strombeg: Then there would be no question about inter-marriage.
FATHER: It would never rise saving when we speak about inter-marriage; I mean, to speak of such, it would only be considered as an expression, as an illustration, as I may term it to be. That is, if we are free from prejudice we would marry one person or one nationality as well as another, but yet our thoughts would be above materialism when we lift up the Standard of Perfection and bring Perfection in ourselves through the Life and Teaching of CHRIST, according to MY Version.
I believe in reincarnation — the reincarnation of the Qualities of CHRIST, and His Characteristics and His Nature, to be brought to fruition in His People; and when this shall have been accomplished, through you be a man from twenty to forty you would be and live the same as JESUS, a pure and a virtuous and a respectable life, married or single. That is MY Belief.
I believe our ideals must be above human affection, for human affection is an outward expression of self-indulgence of selfish tendency. Therefore, when we RISE ABOVE these places in consciousness, we will be taking on the CHRIST Characteristics, according to MY Version, and we will be purifying ourselves, as said the Scripture, “even as He is Pure,” by denying our human tendencies, human fancies and human pleasures.
I often stress that in MY Lectures — denying yourselves of all human fancies, tendencies and pleasures — even the human tendencies. The human tendency at times may be to somewhat be inclined to go in the one special way. Such an expression may not be altogether openly detrimental, but if it is a tendency to lead one and cause one to run in a certain direction for the appeasing to self, to MY Mind it is a tendency that should be denied, that self might not be recognized; that they might disrecognize self even in that issue, and think on the good and for the good of others.
Then as with Paul, “I know I live, but CHRIST liveth in me.” That is it! We put off the old man with all of his deeds, don’t you see, and we put on the New Man, CHRIST JESUS. Hence, you put off the old man, according to MY Version, by putting off the old mind, the old ideas and old opinions — your human fancies, pleasures, and all of the mortal tendencies. When you put them off and deny them completely, continuously, after a while even the desire for those old things will leave you. You will not even have an internal desire for those things.
That is what I call fasting. Such kind will come out by fasting and by prayer. We do not believe in so much fasting from the material food — from the material food that is for the sustenance of the body — but we do believe in fasting from every mortal tendency, every mortal fancy and every mortal pleasure, for to MY Mind these tendencies and fancies and pleasures are the “deeds of the body” that Paul spoke of: “If you mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live.” I feel when we get these corruptible tendencies out of our mentality we will also eventually get them out of our system, and when they are gotten out of our mentality and out of our system, our physical bodies will be cleansed from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting Holiness in the Fear of GOD. That is MY View. And therefore our physical bodies will be cleansed from all impurity and the germs of materialism and other contagious germs that mankind is heir to. It is indeed Wonderful!
I feel thousands of people, as you have heard from the testimonies, have been healed of their physical ailments through firstly being healed mentally and spiritually and making a complete detachment and being detached completely from all of the mortal tendencies and fancies and pleasures, and from their human and mortal tendencies.
Rev. Bell: How would YOU go about arriving at such a state? What method would YOU suggest, or just how do YOU go about it?
FATHER: Well now, I composed a little Motto as an answer for that question: “The relaxation of the conscious mentality is but the reconception of GOD’S Omniscience.” Of course, that was an answer to the question of one’s wisdom or understanding. When he relaxes his conscious mentality, he reconceives GOD’S Omniscience, the Fount of all Wisdom. When he relaxes his conscious mentality and relaxes himself egotistically, he ceases to struggle as an individual, and he stills himself mentally to trust in GOD wholeheartedly, and the reaction of such a confidence and faith and trust in GOD will be the results you are seeking.
Rev. Bonnell: Would YOU put any limitation on Faith in healing? Would YOU consider that there is any limitation to Faith in healing? Will it heal any disease?
FATHER: Why certainly it will, according to scientific methods, but I believe scientific methods might be used according to Divine Science, not so much of mortal science, as we may term it to be. As I often Say, I refuse to use material methods and I refuse to use material remedies to reach the conditions of the people, it matters not what the afflictions may be. But by the relaxation of the conscious mentality and MY Personal Activity, not trying to bring about the healing, the Spirit will do the work scientifically.
Rev. Bonnell: Well, YOU would not be opposed, I suppose, to medical practice, like surgery? YOU would recognize the place of surgery, would YOU not?
FATHER: Well there may be a place on the plane of what we may term to be on the plane of materialism, for surgery, but in the true State of true Spiritualism, as it may be termed — I do not mean as a Religious Movement called Spiritualism, but the true State of Spiritual thinking and that true State of Being, we can be justified, and the Spirit can adjust matters satisfactorily without the use of surgeons.
As I was Saying the other day — now if perchance, for any cause, one of MY Followers or Believers would have an accident— anything that would warrant the necessary use of a physician — I Said, “you should have a physician”. If for any cause MY Spirit and MY Mind, which may be termed by some, the Spirit and Mind of GOD, cannot reach the condition — if for any cause the Spirit cannot reach the condition, it is essential, according to MY Version, for them to have a physical physician.
Rev. Bonnell: If they break the Law, for instance.
FATHER: Yes; for the physician is for the sick. But those of you who have risen above those conditions, you live in another world of expression. Therefore, you can contact the Source and the Supply for your deliverance, and it will come speedily.
Rev. Stromberg: Then we are not capable of having spiritual aid or healing, until we have risen above the stat of materialism in our paths.
FATHER: That is it — not in its entirety, not in its fullness, according to MY Mind; while yet there are people who are living in the mortal state of consciousness to a certain degree, yet at times they may contact in some way — make the mental and spiritual contact, and get their deliverance from certain conditions.
Rev. Stromberg: In a moment of super-revelation, one might say.
FATHER: That is it! That is it!
Rev. Bell: What do YOU teach about prayer, FATHER? YOU Speak about contact — what method of prayer do YOU teach?
FATHER: Well prayer, in MY Mind, is the heart’s sincere desire.
Rev. Bell: YOU would not advocate setting a part of the day for devotion, or something like that?
FATHER: Well not especially in the outward expression.
Rev. Stromberg: Paul said, “Pray without ceasing.”
FATHER: That is it.
Rev. Stromberg: Then there is one other thing. Say I want to pray for relief of indigestion — in that prayer will one say, “I thank Thee Father that I am healed,” or will one pray, “I desire, Father, to be healed,” — what is the method?
FATHER: Well as I put it in MY way of expression, if you think in the positive direction harmoniously with the Life and the Teaching of CHRIST by positive thoughts in the positive direction, without considering yourself your condition as an individual, the reaction of your positive thinking will adjust matters satisfactorily.
Rev. Stromberg: So one says, “I thank Thee that I am well.”
FATHER: It could be that way. We speak positive words. You have heard no doubt, of the positiveness of MY Words in Lectures and in Writing. I Speak positive Words. I refuse to speak the negative. If we speak the positive, we must get positive results, but if we speak the negative, naturally the negative results will come forth. We must believe in that we have not yet seen. As I Say, prayer is the heart’s sincere desire. It is unuttered or unexpressed. If we have Faith sufficient, it is not necessary to express it, for your Faith would have explained it without your expression, you see. GOD knows the secrets of the heart. One need not especially go through an expression of a groveling attitude toward GOD in words, to bring about the results he seeks
Rev. Bonnell: Would YOU feel that a Follower of YOURS, if he became intensely devout, could reach the same relationship with GOD that YOU hold, or would there always be a difference? Could he ever get to that plane, or would there always be a difference between YOU and the Followers?
FATHER: Well now, that is a question that might be for the consideration of those who might question such. MY Thought of a person getting to a place, might not be their thought, you see — the individual’s thought or the other’s thought — because there are those who observe the Perfect Picture. There are those of MY Followers, as you have heard — and they run into the millions — I presume now more than any other Denomination, if it could be termed a Denomination — they believe in the PERSONIFICATION of GOD. They do not see something in ME as an abstract expression, as the Metaphysicians have seen JESUS to be. The CHRIST in the Person of JESUS, to many of the Metaphysicians, was the REALITY, but JESUS as the Personification or Personality was merely a mortal body, corruptible, etc. But MY Followers see ME to be as the PERSONIFICATION of GOD, as did and as do the majority of the other Christian world concerning JESUS, or see JESUS to be.
The Methodists, and Baptists, and other Religions, most of them say JESUS was the CHRIST in RELAITY — not merely the CHRIST in Him abstractly, but JESUS is the CHRIST according to most of the Christian world’s religious. So it is with MY Followers. Therefore they say JESUS is the Firstborn among many Brethren. The Person of JESUS is the PERSONIFICATION OF GOD. They see MY PERSONAL APPEARANCE to be the PERSONIFICATION of the SAME, while yet I have set before them an open door; I have shown them conclusively once and forever it is their privilege to produce the same Qualities, the CHRIST Characteristics, by living it and putting off the old man completely.
That is why My Followers will not do any of those vices that they consider JESUS would not have done, or would not do. They will refrain from all of those things, and do all of the virtues they believe JESUS would do as a Person. Those who are in the likeness of men, they take JESUS as a Person, as a Sample and as an Example for them. Those who are in the likeness of women, they take Mary before the Birth of JESUS, as the sample and the example for their earthly existence or present life to live. They take it as far as they have read and written concerning JESUS and Mary, to be the outstanding personalities manifested as a sample and as an example for humanity, both men and women. When they measure up to this measure of the Stature of CHRIST as manifested in JESUS, if there is anything better for them I believe they will get it.
Rev. Stromberg: Well then, may I just ask in all sincerity? — now if all men and women should arrive at this State everywhere, or say, if all men and women in the United States should arrive at this State, then, say after a hundred years there would be no one living in the body, would there, in the United States? It would put an end to the nation and the human reproduction of the race, would it not?
FATHER: Well it would bring Perfection in the FLESH as well as in the SPIRIT. The flesh would be spiritualized and the Spirit would be materialized for the two would become one, and in that state if they then continue, what need would there be for the reproduction of the Perfect, for the Perfect would be incorruptible, undefiled, and could not fade away.
Rev. Bonnell: In that state there would not be any death then?
FATHER: In that state there would not be any death, for those deeds of the body should be mortified, as Paul said, and ye shall surely live! You see what Paul was driving at? He was driving to the point and trying to get the people to come to the Perfect State of Being, that their bodies might be purified by the Spirit of GOD that dwells in them. When this was accomplished they would no longer be subject to corruption and death.
I Am not Saying this has been accomplished with all of MY Followers and Believers, but they have a forelight of it. They have the revelation of it, and many of them sought it and have been illuminated by the Spirit of it without having attained Perfection.
Rev. Stromberg: Was CHRIST an example of this combination of the Spiritual and material — the material was Spiritualized and the Spiritual was materialized?
FATHER: That’s it! He was a Sample and an Example according to MY Version. On the Mount of Transfiguration you had the expressed Glorification in the Flesh, as a Sample and as an Example for others. What says the Scripture there, or the Gospel whichever? When Peter said, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; let us build three tabernacles — one for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Thee!” — he heard a Voice from Heaven Saying, “This is MY Beloved Son in Whom I Am well pleased, hear ye HIM.”
I believe the unfoldment of the CHRIST in the Person of JESUS, and the Glorified expression as exhibited on the Mountain, was a Sample and was an Example for all humanity. When they shall have put off mortal from the conscious conception, and put on Immortality completely, consciously as well as subconsciously, I believe Perfection will result and be developed in the physical body, and the body will be Incorruptible, even as JESUS.
Rev. Stromberg: Well there is one thing in there that puzzles me. Now when JESUS was transfigured, then there was a Voice, GOD’S Voice, shall we say —
FATHER: That’s right!
Rev. Stromberg: Well then, was GOD — in a way we can say that CHRIST was one with GOD, but shall we say that CHRIST was separated from GOD in existence at that moment?
FATHER: Well, according to MY Version, it was merely according to the version of those who stood around. GOD must needs Speak to men according to the light of the understanding wherein they stand. Hence, according to MY Version, I candidly believe GOD was not aside, or something out from CHRIST as JESUS. HE expressly expressed HIMSELF according to the light of the understanding of those who stood around — for those who would, and did, and still look for GOD as from Heaven.
Rev. Stromberg: Then you may say that this consummation, the last that they saw, this spoke to their minds and said that.
FATHER: That’s it. When the Development of the GODSHIP Degree was manifested in JESUS so vividly, the Glow Rays of GOD and the Rays of HIS Glow shone upon Him. I believe it was an outward expression, merely the Ever-presence Speaking to them. HE had to Speak to them according to their understanding, as though HE was in Heaven, the same as it was when the Wise Men from the East were going down to worship JESUS as a Babe in Bethlehem. When they were going down, they heard apparently as though it was a Voice from Heaven, or Voices from Heaven, saying, “Glory to GOD in the Highest, and on earth Peace, good will to men.” GOD would Speak to them through the Stars. As the Astronomers HE Spoke to them at that time through the Stars, by giving them the understanding to discern the Star that hung over Bethlehem.
Now this, according to MY Version, was an abstract outward expression in the language of the Astronomers. GOD Spoke to them, but in the language of their version from a vision, and from a revelation. HE sung the Song to them; according to My Version the Ever-presence of GOD was singing to them, “Glory to GOD in the Highest, and on earth Peace, good will to men.” That is the way I believe it to be.
Rev. Bonnell: FATHER, have YOU written anything except what appears in The Spoken Word? Is there any place where we can get a summary of what YOU have told us?
FATHER: Well I have written a little for different papers, different newspapers, etc.
Rev. Bonnell: I was just wondering, because I have some friends in Winnipeg who are very much interested and want to know more about YOU. This gentleman has been at a number of Your Meetings in Vancouver.
FATHER: Well I was just going to Say, I have quite a large Following in Vancouver.
Rev. Bell: Yes, I know.
FATHER: Oh it is a Wonderful Thought, to live in the conscious Presence of GOD — to be conscious of GOD’S Presence. The mere Consciousness of GOD’S Presence will bring about a great revelation. When we can consciously convince ourselves and convert our conscious mind that GOD is actually PRESENT, this is the Mission for which CHRIST Came. I Am sure each of you can recall the Scripture as recorded before JESUS came as a Person, where it says,
“His Name shall be called Immanuel,
being interpreted, GOD IS WITH US.”
You see, that was the Mission of JESUS, but the average person got away from it. The average persons got away from it, and the majority of them stressed the Ascension of CHRIST, getting away from our presence, instead of the recognition of His Ever-presence.
Rev. Stromberg: For He said, “Lo, I Am with you always.”
FATHER: That’s it — and that is the great consolation, to be conscious of GOD’S EVER-PRESENCE! But if we get the thought that GOD is far away from us, you see, we will get careless and we will get unconcerned, and we will do things we would not do ordinarily as human beings if we knew HE was actually Present.
So the great conviction is to get mankind to realize GOD’S EVER-PRESENCE. Through the condescension of this Message and GOD HIMSELF, I brought this Body and allowed men to observe It as the Personification, or Personification, as it may be termed, of GOD HIMSELF, that they might realize GOD is PRESENT. When this is once established in the consciousness of the people, they will cease to commit sin and vice and crime, and all of those things will no longer be considered among them. They will be in a New Day, as MY Followers sing. It is Wonderful!
Rev. Stromberg: May I ask YOU one more question? I am bubbling over her now! I am afraid we are taking a lot of FATHER’S time.
FATHER: Well I Am glad to talk with you, but I AM writing for a number of papers, and MY Interviews, a good many of them, go to the Press, etc., and we have to read them and proofread them to see whether there is any mistake.
Rec. Stromberg: Well this is what I wanted to ask YOU: Now we are Ministers, and there are thousands of Ministers around trying to preach the Truth as they see it, and the Presence of GOD in the midst, etc., etc., — what is YOUR View and reaction in the field of this work the Churches and Ministers are doing? Is YOUR Blessing on it? Do YOU feel they are honestly leading the way, and preaching, and doing good?
FATHER: Well there are a whole lot of Ministers — a good many Ministers — sincere; and a lot, on the other hand, the same as in the political world; there are a good many insincere. But those who are sincere, they will not let the spirit of orthodoxy separate them from ME and from MY Version if they come in contact with ME.
Rev. Stromberg: But, say, before they come in contact with YOU, is YOUR Spirit a Blessing on what they are endeavoring to do?
FATHER: Well to bring about a closer relationship between GOD and man, why positively yes. It is MY Delight to cooperate with them and to endorse them in every way possible, while yet on the other hand, MY Mission may be, in this Dispensation, for the eradication and the dispelling of the first imaginary Heaven according to the average Minister’s version.
John declared through the prophetic revelation of his, the first Heaven and the first earth are passed away. In this Dispensation that imaginary Heaven will pass from the consideration of the masses, and from the consideration of all religions in this present Dispensation. As we advance scientifically and intelligently in this Spiritual Civilization we will get away from that concept of the imaginary Heaven, for it was an imagination, it was not a reality, it was merely imaginary. But that which was in the imaginary, don’t you see, as Mr. Mackay put it years ago — I have not heard of Mr. Mackay for quite some time, but I remember once he said — “Whatsoever a man can imagine he can have it, or it can be done.”
Well now, the imaginary Heaven, as the Ministers or the Clergy have heretofore preached — out of that imaginary Heaven I can see the real Heaven coming forth into expression to the earth plane. John said, “I saw a New Heaven and a New Earth coming down from GOD out of Heaven.” You see, it is coming out of the imaginary into our conscious realization on the earth plane — coming down from the imaginary one to the conscious realization of them, don’t you see! Therefore, I Say, GOD is materializing Spiritual things and bringing into realization imaginations, don’t you see, and Spiritualizing that which was material. Hence, the Scripture is actually fulfilled.
Rev. Stromberg: The two become one!
FATHER: The two become one! I pray that they may be one, even as We are One!” Not only so, but He taught His Disciples to pray to “Let THY Kingdom come and THY Will be done on earth, or IN earth, as it is in Heaven.” So this has become to be a LIVING RELAITY in our consideration! Now all of the RIGHTEOUSNESS, TRUTH and JUSTICE that our Religions have taught us from our earliest existence, we are endeavoring to put it into practice and cause it to be made real, tangible and practical HERE and NOW, and recognize it as a scientific gift from the Spiritual Realm of things, as being termed from Heaven.
Rev. Stromberg: To complete my question, then, Your consideration, Your Faith is that all will be swept into this realization of the Consciousness of DIVINE PRESENCE, represented in this Movement that follows YOU.
FATHER: That’s it. It is not especially MY Organization, you see, but of every nation, language, tongue, and all of the people, they will eventually enter into this recognition or realization of GOD”S EVER-PRESENCE! When this shall have been established, made real, tangible and practical in our lives universally and in our affairs, CHRIST will Rule on the Throne of RIGHTEOUSNESS, for it is written, “RIGHTEOUSNESS and JUDGMENT are the habitation of HIS Throne.”
Now you can see MY RIGHTEOUS GOVERNMENT PLATFORM! Now you can see MY RIGHTEOUS GOVERNMENT MOVEMENT for which I Stand and upon which I Stand. You can see the Righteousness of CHRIST established in the consciousness of men will give Him an abiding place in them, and will also give Him a Throne upon which to Reign as LORD of lords and KING of kings. Now you can see, I have thrown open the door for all mankind. I have not closed the door to say this Revelation or this Dominion as an expression of Perfection is to ME alone as a Person, but I have stressed it VIVIDILY, that you might see and observe the significance of LIVING RIGHTEOUSLY, GODLY, and SOBERLY in this present world, and by becoming to have a Righteous Judgment. When we have a Righteous Judgment, and unify ourselves together with others, we will eventually have a RIGHTEOUS GOVERNMENT.
Now CHRIST must Rule. As said a composition, one of Christianity’s Songs, “He Rules the world with Truth and Grace.” He must RULE it, but not especially necessarily as a PERSON but as a PRINCIPLE. I stress the Principle of Mathematics as a sketch and a reflection, parably speaking, of the mystery of the Reign of CHRIST. You see, the Principle of Mathematics rules the world of mathematics, and rules all of our affairs, does it not? With or without a person it rules, and although it has control over many, and many have access in and with the Principle of Mathematics, they rule by the PRINCIPLE of Mathematics. But if you get down and make the difference, I mean, to adjust a matter, if you use the Principle of Mathematics, and another using it is honest, if he is honest he will agree with you, if you each know how to use the Principle of Mathematics!
As I often stress when a question arises, if there be seemingly a division, I Say, “Now put it on the Scale of Justice; whatsoever the CHRIST Mind Says about it.” If there is a question spoken concerning the time of day, “Well it is nine o’clock, ten o’clock” — I Say, “Is it ten o’clock? Are you sure of it?” If they say, “Yes, I am sure of it,” I Say, “Well, look at the clock; look at the time if it is supposed to be accurate time. We go by what Eastern Standard Time says according to its legality where we live,” or something of that sort.
So the Principle of Mathematics, I term it to be a sketch and a reflection of a percent of a percent of a fraction of a grain of the mystery of the great Principle of Life, CHRIST, that shall Rule on the Throne of the minds of men as LORD of lords and KING of kings, and will adjust all matters satisfactorily by His great RIGHTEOUSNESS, TRUTH and JUSTICE in Himself.
Rev. Bell: A last question, FATHER! What place do Sacraments have in Your Work?
FATHER: Well of course, all of these material ordinances are imposed upon men, for it is written that way, until the time of Reformation; and they are used as a sample, or as a symbol, until the Light of the true unfoldment of the Reality has come into expression.
Rev. Bell: YOU don’t use them in Your Movement?
FATHER: Not materially.
Rev. Stromberg: They are stepping stones.
FATHER: Yes, they are stepping stones. It causes a person at certain times to try to adjust his mind, to be perfect at that particular time, don’t you know. If it is only at that time, it is good to try to clear his mind and his conscience from all evil thoughts and everything, if it is only for that particular time. But of course, we believe in putting all of these things into daily practice, and being the same at all times.
Rev. Stromberg: If there is one thing I think we ought to close with — would it be possible for us, since Your good Assistant over there has copied everything You Said — would it be possible for us to have a copy to refresh our recollection of all YOU have told us?
FATHER: I think so. We will try to get it out and release a copy to you. Still, no doubt, it will be released to the Press. MY Staff Reporters over there, I see they tried to get it, although I partially try to get away from some of them at times, because I just want to be away a little, at times — but Mr. . . . . and Miss. . . . and Miss. . . . there, and those who take MY Message in shorthand, they try to get every Word I Say.
(As the visitors arose to go, and shook Hands with FATHER, HE continued:)
I hope our contact will mean something for your endeavors. I do!
Rev. Stromberg: I feel much encouraged over what I spoke to YOU about.
FATHER: Well it means a whole lot. I believe through your contact it will mean something to you. It is not always what we say that counts, but often the mental and spiritual contact — a harmonious mental and spiritual contact, as I Say, is as great and more at times, than what we might term to be our moral support otherwise.
I have known many to say to ME, “If YOU would do this, that or the other for me.” I Say, “Well of course, the mental and spiritual contact means a whole lot.” The contact with one who is in harmony with you, and others in harmony with that one, even if they are not conscious of it, the transmission of thought will cooperate, and thought-forces will be the means, through the Spirit of GOD’S Presence, of carrying out many points.
Now I noticed, up until here recently I did not introduce Bills in Congress Personally. I would Speak, and I refused to mention anything to those who were in Authority — legally in Authority; those who were in Authority from a legal point of view — and yet whatsoever I endeavored, as a rule, they would catch it.
Now I recall, several years ago I Spoke of Common Law that was endorsable in the State of New York, and yet I criticized it, yet I did not mention it to a Congressman, or Senator, or any of the City or State Officials; but in a very few months such a Law was outlawed, and many other points I have Spoken of. It goes forth through cooperation — through cooperation of thought-forces. I do not need to do anything Personally especially, but through the contact mentally and spiritually the transmission of Righteous thoughts can and will go to others, even as the transmission of a broadcast message over the broadcasting station. Now isn’t that Wonderful!
Group: Yes, it is very Wonderful.
FATHER: Now I mean to cooperate with you if you will accept it, even if I do not Say a Word Personally to another, and I AM sure you will feel the results, because others will endorse it! We have with us this evening — I presume he must be here now — a Minister from Texas. He has been sent here from Fort Worth and Dallas, I think it is, to get ME to go there. They said the community sent him, just to have ME go. They would charter a special train to take ME and MY Staff, or those I wished to carry, without any cost or expense to Myself for it, and they would be willing to pay ME a thousand dollars a day while I Am away. They say the people need ME. Well now, I do not need to go Personally, but through the mental and spiritual contact, thought forces will accomplish our endeavors.