MOTHER DIVINE
(The gentleman, Mr. Maxwell, who brought Mr. Adio-Moses over for the interview did not make his appearance in the Office until the latter part of the interview. The Secretary introduced Mr. Adio-Moses to FATHER, and FATHER spoke to him as follows:)
I regret you are in such a hurry. I was trying to rush through to get down to serve the Banquet. You might take a seat for a few seconds.
Mr. Moses: Thank YOU very much.
FATHER: This is MOTHER DIVINE.
Mr. Moses (rising and bowing): How do you do?
MOTHER DIVINE: Peace. Pleased to meet you.
FATHER: And the others are some of My Secretarial Staff.
Mr. Moses (again rising and bowing): Pleased to meet you.
Staff: Peace.
Mr. Moses (turning to FATHER): Well, I came from a very long way, as YOU can see. My country is so many thousands of miles away.
FATHER: Yes.
Mr. Moses: From the West Coast of Africa. I came to this Country on an invitation from this Government -- the American Government. I am a labor organizer; have had many years training. I am here visiting various social and religious institutions of this Country. I won't say that I am very religious but I do want to try to understand things that are religious. I have been rather taken aback by the segregation practice that exists in this Country.
FATHER: Yes.
Mr. Moses: But I can assure YOU that just a few minutes ago, since I have crossed the portals of this building here, I feel I am in another world altogether! It is so true! I must say, downstairs it is the most remarkable thing indeed! I did see one or two meetings of trade unions, where people sit together, sing together, eat together, and so on, but it is not with the same spirit of what you might say, spirit of congeniality and camaraderie that exists down here.
FATHER: Certainly.
Mr. Moses: And I think it is remarkable indeed! And so I think that the American people in general, and I should say, embodied in the American Government itself, have a lot to learn from this place here!
FATHER: Well, I feel they have. By composition we have brought out an appeal to the Government of the United States of America and her subjects as a nation, to copy after the Fashion of FATHER DIVINE. (FATHER indicates the enactment of the Bill as put forth by the Secretarial Staff as HE says:) This is just a Sample and an Example of the reality of True Democracy, of Brotherhood, of Christianity, of Americanism and of Judaism as synonymous.
Mr. Moses: Africanism too. As a matter of fact, I would like to replace Americanism with Africanism, because it is my strong belief that the Africans have a much better tolerant spirit than Americans. That is my impression, really!
FATHER: Well, I feel they have, in a great measure; as you say, you claim not to be so religious yourself; I find practically all Africans and African descendants are much inclined to be religious.
Mr. Moses: Certainly.
FATHER: And by the inclination to be religious, when they are educated they are also inspired to be more scientific than they would ordinarily be without an inspiration from GOD.
But I do consider America, consisting of all nations, the United States of America! Therefore, one could not claim the full heritage of America, as a nation of people, of Americanism, without the recognition of others who are here amalgamated!
Mr. Moses: That's right.
FATHER: What is Americanism, or, in other words, America? It is the Amalgamation of All Nations, Languages, Tongues and People! We, the American People, as we consider ourselves to be, consist of all nations from the different languages, tongues and people, and we recognize the amalgamation to be the Summation of Humanity as a Sample and as an Example. Therefore, I consider America being the Amalgamation of All Nations!
It brings us back to the original quotation of the Scripture, according to the King James version of the Bible:
I do not feel that we are in our right place segregated and isolated; but, to the extreme reverse, when we are Amalgamated and Unified Together, as was by the Creator in the creation, according to the historians -- GOD formed All Nations of men to dwell upon the face of the whole earth out of the One Blood -- and according to same, I see that we must bring All Peoples Back Together and bring an Abolition to All Division and Segregation among the nations!
There are many of the African descendants and abstractions of the African nationalities seem to think that amalgamation is not the real thing, or not the great essential; but to bring an End to All Divisibility we must Unite together Individually, Severally, Collectively, Nationally, and , thence, Internationally -- for
'As with an individual, so with a nation; and as with a nation, so with all nations!'
I AM looking forward to see the time that ALL of the nations or nationalities
universally will be so consolidatedly united and amalgamated there will be no
sense or trace of division among them characteristically, politically, socially
and otherwise!
It is a privilege to realize that this is the Hope of the Redemption of the nations -- to Unify and bring an End to All Divisibility!
There are some of all nations and all tribes and all people that are somewhat inclined to be selfish, in My Opinion, with a tendency to care for self especially, and refuse to recognize their fellow brother that seems to be another. But how marvelous it will be when we will be able to amalgamate universally and internationally and bring an end to all divisibility among the nations, as well as among individuals!
So, Americanism, Christianity, Democracy, Judaism and, as you say, Africanism, as a part of the great universal scheme of things, will eventually be established, whether it may be in the name of Africanism, Americanism or Christianity, or what not -- it will be the Selfsame Unified Brotherhood of Man established, and all peoples will eventually realize they are all One Family -- Brotherhood, Representing One Family!
So that is what we look forward to and expect to see that this is established throughout the universe, and there will be no more warfare and bloodshed, but the distribution and the advancement of knowledge and understanding, skill and ability and increase for the benefit of all peoples universally! That is My Plan and Purpose.
As I happened to be looking through the paper this morning, the Philadelphia Inquirer, I saw an article showing how that they have brought an end to the segregation in the YMCA organizations. (FATHER shows Mr. Moses the article, as HE says:) How marvelous it is! And they are looking forward for this City to become to be, in reality, the City of Brotherly Love, as there will be no more divisions among the organizations and groups. It is Wonderful!
When I first moved here to reside, about ten years ago, people of a dark complexion of any nation and of all nations, mostly, could not and were not privileged to get accommodation in some of the hotels and some of the schools; but I have broken that line of demarcation by the demonstration of a True Amalgamation!
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: Others have copied after the fashion I have shown them in the Actuated Words of Expression, and they can see now people can live together, work together, eat together, of the different abstractions and racial representations, and be One Family! And I was telling a boy that was going in the Army, Sunday I think it was; I said, "You can enjoy going in the Army and going under the jurisdiction of the Armed Forces now, whether it be" -- I was thinking about whether it would be in the Air Corps, Army or Navy; it does not make any difference. Since I, through President Truman, our Chief Executive, have brought an end to discrimination and segregation in the Armed Forces; it should encourage young men to be glad to go in the Army and the Navy and get away from discrimination and segregation!
Socially you are divided and segregated,
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: other than with ME and with MINE and those who are influenced by My Teaching; but in the Army and the Navy they are demanding the soldiers and the Marines and all to Live Together, Eat Together and Sleep Together, the same as we do! So it is a wonderful thought!
So I was telling this young man it was good that he could go in the Army and the Navy or wheresoever he may be under the Armed Forces now, and he will be protected by My Spirit and by My Presence as long as he holds ME uppermostly in consciousness and lives according to My Teaching to the best of his ability!
So it was wonderful to see he was voluntarily enlisting at the unripe young age of seventeen! His father had to sign for him but he was going! He has two other brothers overseas now, and he is going in to serve this Country! I think it is marvelous!
Mr. Moses: I think it is, too.
FATHER: So as our Government, as you say, sent for you -- it shows that we are trying to get together nationally, politically, to bring an end to divisibility among the people.
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: It is Wonderful!
Mr. Moses: I think it is, too. I certainly will go back with this Message that I gather from what YOU have told me! I myself think it is a great deal to be done by an exchange of business of this nature;
FATHER: Yes.
Mr. Moses: not only in the field of politics and trade unions but in the field of religion. I can tell YOU this -- that while I was in the South I had the opportunity of speaking to a set of people. It was a mixed audience, and what I said then was that in Nigeria, which is on the West Coast of Africa, we do not any longer require the services of missionaries from this Country!
FATHER: No.
Mr. Moses: Why is that? Because we feel that if they have anything to tell us by way of social information, let them go home and do the reforming there at home!
FATHER: That's right!
Mr. Moses: And I think most of them ought to come here and learn some lessons. Honestly! I very much appreciate what is going on in this place and I am very much impressed by it! As I said, I shall go back with this Message that I learned not only from Your Words but from the things I actually see with my own eyes! I do hope it will not be long before I return to this Country.
FATHER: When do you expect to return back?
Mr. Moses: Well, I'm going back on the seventeenth of this month. I am going to New York tonight and await my boat which will take me to England on the twenty-first, and from there I will return home, it may be the end of October.
FATHER: How long have you been here?
Mr. Moses: Over three months.
FATHER: I see. And the Government wanted someone from your Country to represent --
Mr. Moses: (interposing): That's right, they instituted a program called the exchange of leadership movement; and under this program they bring in leaders of activity of various opinions from other parts of the world to America, and also take people from all paths and phases of life and go to others parts of the world and create a better understanding, which I think is very good indeed.
FATHER: Yes.
Mr. Moses: And I have learned a lot of things since I have come here that I have already held to, and learned a lot more, of course. And those who have come to our Country have learned too! When you mention our Country, what springs to mind -- they think we have holes in our noses and ears, and big bellies and grotesque appearances. Of course, that is the justification of the exploiters who come to Africa to exploit. That is not true! Now when they suddenly realize the Africans themselves are getting to know the tricks by which they have been exploited, now they want to bring us here to get us disillusioned and the American people disillusioned too!
The world generally -- I mean, we have nations that are exploiting other nations; and when the exploited nations suddenly realize and are aware they have been exploited, they realize they can even exploit themselves, instead of letting others to exploit them!
And now I suppose the American people want to make as many friends outside of America, which, I think, is a good thing indeed, and I hope it will succeed.
FATHER: Under such terms -- I mean, under such a proposition does the Government foster your expenses?
Mr. Moses: Yes, yes.
FATHER: That is good.
Mr. Moses: They paid my transport here.
MOTHER DIVINE: Your Government?
Mr. Moses: No, no -- the American Government. They fostered the scheme. We have such plans in our Country too, where we pay expenses; but this is the American Government. They paid my expenses.
FATHER: That is good. Where do you reside here?
Mr. Moses: Well, as I said, I am leaving the City tonight, but I am putting up with one, Mr. B.R. of the American Friends; but I am leaving tonight for New York.
FATHER: I see. It is truly wonderful! I AM very happy to have met you and hope your contact will mean the social cooperation, and as you are representing a trade union, it will also mean the integration of different nations;
Mr. Moses: Wonderful.
FATHER: in your Country as well as in this one;
Mr. Moses: Certainly.
FATHER: so that it will no longer be a world of division; I mean, so this world will no longer be divided but it will tend to help to bring about One World and One People!
Just as you see them on My immediate Staff, as a Sample and as an Example I put forth this as a practical course in human relationship of society -- as the course of practical human psychology -- that others might copy after this fashion individually, socially and even nationally, so that they might lift themselves and others above limitations!
But as I told this young man the other day who was going in the Army; I felt it was a blessing to him and others who are not under this Organizational or Personal Domain of the FATHER DIVINE Peace Mission Movement, or under My Jurisdiction, as it may be deemed, to have the social freedom as we have. We are going to Universalize it! But since they do not have it out there, and do not even have organizational freedom and intellectual freedom without the Standard of Truth as exemplified, it is good for them to go in the Army, in the Navy and under the Armed Forces of the Government to be taught more effectively Brotherhood and Democracy, so that they might feel their freedom and feel more like Real True American Citizens, by having access for expression from the different angles of expression without discrimination!
Heretofore they have been segregated, even in the Army and the Navy, and set apart. We are not representing races, creeds and colors and every divided system; in other words, expression of divisibility, in My Consideration; it tends to lower the standard of our qualification for service to man, to GOD and to all humanity!
When we have a free access for expression socially, intellectually and from other angles of expression, even industrially, as capital and labor -- if it has free access for expression without discrimination or segregation, it gives the subjects a morale that cannot be daunted, to lift them up! They can stand! And it also inspires them, by having free access, in My Opinion.
For this cause we do rejoice and are happy to see the different ones coming to the light of this understanding! As a Sample and as an Example we stand, emphasizing and advocating the significance of Unification!
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: And we are happy to have an inlet in this Grace wherein we stand, so that others can contact it and observe it and then expand and extend their ambitions in the direction whereto they have had an ambition to accomplish; but to help them establish on the Foundation of Democracy, Brotherhood and Christianity and Americanism as synonymous!
My Reason for stressing that point is because we believe in "E Pluribus Unum" politically and legally. On our coin the inscription inscribed, "E Pluribus Unum" -- One Composed of Many! U.S. could be termed or deemed to be not only the United States of America as a Country or Nation, but "US"! And Americanism is the Kingdom of GOD, for it is not necessarily confined to America alone but wheresoever these Fundamental Principles have been established effectively, it really expresses the Fundamental Principles of GOD to the children of men!
That is why the Pilgrim Fathers came to this Country seeking Religious Liberty; and from that viewpoint this Country was founded upon the Fundamental Principle of Unity, Equity and Justice for All. Where there be some who fail to comply with these Fundamentals for which we stand, even though they may be representatives of Government in this Country and under this Government, it does not say the Fundamental Principle of this Government is not True and the Just and Accurate Foundation for Perfection to be developed and brought to fruition, because many do not live it and comply with it. As long as there is division and discrimination on any side it shows that it is not an expression of our True Democracy, or Americanism, whichever, as we term it to be, which consists of the amalgamation of all nations; for we hold these Truths as self- evidence, that all men are created equal;
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: and they all have their unalienable rights to Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness. And if we would have had the privilege to express it here in America all along, those who have been downtrodden and underprivileged would have long since been lifted, and would have been enabled, by so being and by so doing, to help our Country to ward off all warfare and bloodshed without the shedding of blood!
Mr. Moses: I hope this will come through! As I say, the consummation of the intention of the Constitution of America, it is a very great task indeed for anybody who wants to make themselves responsible, as it is being done here by your respective Self. And much more so -- because when you look back and remember those who drew up the Constitution, I remember when it said "the people," they weren't referring to the c--people in those days, and so they were actually referring to the n-s. That is what it makes so difficult! So we have to cash in on that and make it applicable in this Country.
It was not the fault of the n-s who were brought here. They were brought here by the greed and avarice of the people in those days; and since they have been here they have contributed to everything that belongs to this Country -- both the evil and the good -- and therefore they are entitled to everything that comes out of this Country! And that is why I appreciate this Work going on here; not only the effect of integration in America, but this Universal Brotherhood of man -- the enacting of which I can see in this place! -- and it is a very satisfying thing indeed, after you have gone around and seen all the numerous places in America, and you can come here and find such a friendly atmosphere. I think it gives some hope!
FATHER: Yes, as I have taught the boys in song and in other messages and means of correspondence, we are backing our boys across the sea and in other countries, the same as in your Country -- the Country that has been least respected and desired -- and the other nations have desired to keep them down! I have said,
'Back our boys with Brotherhood and show them that they are not alone. Prove to them that they are fighting for a Democracy that's one for all and all for one!'
Because of the color of a man's skin or complexion or racial origin or abstraction, it does not say that, or show or prove that whatsoever may come through and by that individual is not applicable to another, as you say.
Mr. Moses: No.
FATHER: That which was applicable to this Country as a nation, to free herself and give herself and her subjects here, their real emancipation from Great Britain, and declare her Independence as a Nation -- do not think, or they need not think that is was confined to those who signed that Declaration of Independence.
Mr. Moses: No, that's right. Yes.
FATHER: It was an event that happened, and its experience was for the benefit of all subjects, and it would be applicable to all others under the selfsame conditions and circumstances -- to give them the right to throw off the yoke of bondage, even as they did, if it happens to be those who threw off the yoke of oppression, and enslaved and put others in bondage. They have the same Declaration of Independence and courage and zeal to throw off the bondage and break the alien yoke of bondage that they have been struggling under for lo, these many years!
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: I said I would break that alien yoke of bondage. It is Wonderful! Our Country, here, freed ourselves from the oppression of Great Britain in the time of the Revolutionary War, and it freed it for itself but also for her subjects and her subjects at large! See the mystery?
Mr. Moses: Yes, Sir.
FATHER: They can apply it to their lives individually, severally and collectively and use it just as effectively, that they might throw off the alien yoke of bondage from them and set themselves free!
Hence, Abraham Lincoln tried to set the American African descendants free here in America! They were set free legally or politically but they were not set free completely until I came Personally! Now I AM giving them their Real Freedom that no man can give them!
The political or legal freedom that Abraham Lincoln gave them was a limited freedom to those who were enslaved here in America. It was a wonderful blessing to that end, but still they were enslaved until I came! -- enslaved by the yoke of bondage and the previous condition of servitude! A man of a dark complexion would get paid a wage scale running from, maybe seven or eight dollars per week, where one of a light complexion would get paid, maybe twice as much, or three times as much!
I have called for an Equitable Adjustment by our Government to bring an end to all such oppression, and from and to all such hardships, that they might be emancipated!
So this that was applicable for the nation is applicable for the subjects of the nation, if they do know how to apply it!
So we are happy to say that as we declared our Independence as a nation, we also declare our Individual Independence and express it and manifest it!
Mr. Moses: Thank YOU.
FATHER: Therefore, those who adhere to My Teaching will be able to go in Peace and sin no more, and be emancipated from the barriers of racism, sectarianism, from the yoke of alien bondage, and the like, that they have been struggling under, even until now; and all other barriers and limitations. This is a Sample and Example,
Mr. Moses: I can see that.
FATHER: that I present to the world at large, that others may copy after the fashion and recognize the Actual and Ever Presence of their GOD!
(At this point one of the Secretaries enters with a message for Mr. Moses, stating that he is to leave on a later train, the information being sent up by the gentleman who is awaiting him downstairs. FATHER then says:)
Yes, if you are going on the train it only takes an hour and a half; so we would be very glad to have you come and break bread with us.
Mr. Moses: Thank YOU very much. There are two things I want to express at this point. One is a souvenir. One is of much or greater value with YOUR Endorsement! Secondly -- if I can have a copy of this interview. I think it will be a great message indeed to the people, when I get back home. I shall leave my address with YOU and it can be forwarded to my home, or before I leave New York.
FATHER: I think it will be possible to get one -- plus! What I mean by "plus", to get an interview, to get this interview in the next week's issue of The New Day plus whatsoever I have said that will be going in The New Day otherwise; a number of other interviews and Messages.
Mr. Moses: Yes, Sir. Thank YOU.
(At this juncture the gentleman who was awaiting Mr. Moses downstairs is ushered in and introduced by the Secretary as follows:) FATHER DIVINE, this is Mr. Maxwell that brought Mr. Moses.
Mr. Maxwell (coming over to greet FATHER): Fine, fine! Peace, FATHER! How are YOU? It is a pleasure to meet YOU!
Mr. Moses (to Mr. Maxwell): We have been having a very interesting discussion and I was rather enthused.
FATHER (to Mr. Maxwell): This is MOTHER DIVINE.
Mr. Maxwell: MOTHER DIVINE -- fine!
FATHER: And the others are a part of My Secretarial Staff.
Mr. Maxwell: Fine, fine!
FATHER (to Mr Moses, as HE hands him a Calendar): This is a yearly calendar with a few of My Mottoes and Expressions, if you would care to look at one and take it along,
Mr. Moses: Thank YOU. Thank YOU very much! Would YOU autograph it?
FATHER (smiling): I never accustom Myself to autograph anything, although you have My Autograph through My daily Correspondence.
Mr. Moses: I see.
FATHER: I sign all of My Letters of Correspondence. (FATHER picks up a large stack of letters from His other desk and shows them to Mr. Moses as HE says:) I just haven't signed these. These were a few of the letters of correspondence -- I don't think they have been signed yet. But I sign all of My Letters. So when you write ME and I write you, you will get My Signature.
Mr. Moses: Very good, very good.
FATHER: Now I would like to say, I have proposed a retroactive issue to bring about an equitable adjustment for the under-privileged, and especially for the slaveric people and their descendants -- those who were exiled here from Africa, and their descendants -- and from other places -- and because of their previous condition of servitude have been deprived of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness; disfranchised in every way! Now I AM demanding an equitable adjustment by our Government and by the Government of Great Britain, and others, who co-operated in the enslavement of those who were enslaved! I AM calling for Retroactive Adjustment! They should be paid, both they and their offsprings and descendants should be paid an Equitable Adjusted Fee, from the time they were enslaved here, until now!
Mr. Moses: Well, that is interesting! I have always contended that they could never be paid fully, back; that they could never actually recompense them for what they have received!
FATHER: GOD is on the scene now!
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: It is written in the Bible,
'HE shall reward every man according as his works may be!'
and I AM not talking about something just superficial and suppositionally discerned!
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: But you as a man, if you have been deprived of anything because of your complexion or racial abstraction, or because of your previous condition of servitude, GOD is on the scene now and This Is GOD'S Administration! We shall have an Equitable Adjustment, for Every man shall receive that which is just; that is, if they live -- and their descendants!
Just think of the millions of people -- even those -- just a few so-called Africans here in this Country, amounting to about fifteen million, more or less; well, even at thirty million at this time. They are supposed to have been under-privileged until now; but GOD, through His Condescension, came in the Insignificant -- at least, in the Insignificant Appearance -- declaring deliverance for the people that haven been under-privileged, mistreated, downtrodden and non- privileged! Since I have -- that is My Determination! (FATHER passes him a New Day opened in an enlarged copy of this particular Peace Stamp, which reads:)
THE PENDULUM OF EQUILIBRIUM HEREAFTER, ALL NATIONS SHALL BE GUIDED BY THE PENDULUM OF EQUILIBRIUM WHICH I HAVE STARTED SWINGING IN THE DEFENSE OF HUMANITY GENERALLY AND FOR THE PRESERVATION OF PEACE UNIVERSALLY. THE UNIFICATION OF ALL NATIONS OR ALLIED NATIONS IS THE HOPE OF SALVATION OF ANY NATION. --- FATHER DIVINE.
April 25, 1949 A.D.F.D.
(Mr. Moses reads it with interest and then passes it on to his friend, Mr. Maxwell,
who also reads it. FATHER then says:)
That is something you might consider and then think on this Retroactive Proposal, Declaration and Endeavor.
Mr. Moses (glancing through a New Day): Is this Your Manuscript, FATHER?
FATHER: No, this is a weekly paper published by The New Day Publishing Company. It carries My Messages verbatim, in a great measure.
Mr. Moses: Oh, I see.
FATHER (showing him some pictures of the far-away places): Now here is a few of My Following in England. Of course, in England, the most of them are of a different, of a light complexion, whichever. Some in Australia -- most, or at least, all were of the light complexion until I AM now Amalgamating them! (FATHER turns to MOTHER, saying:) Do we have that letter available?
MOTHER DIVINE: Yes, I think so. Just a minute.
FATHER (to Mister Moses): I just received a letter from the Circle Mission Church in Australia, telling how they are coming in busloads, of the Aborigines, to our places in Australia. It is Wonderful! (FATHER indicates other pictures, saying:) This is Germany, the U.S. Zone. And this is Panama. These are just a limited few of them. This is Bermuda. I have a lot of people in Panama and Bermuda, Jamaica and Haiti. This is the British Zone, Germany. I have some in the Russian Zone too, in Austria.
(At this point there is a pause as MOTHER reads the letter from Australia, referred to, which is enjoyed by the gentlemen and all present, and which, incidentally, will also be found, no doubt, in this or in next week's issue of The New Day! FATHER then proceeds, after the reading, to show the guests some other pictures, as HE says:)
This is New Zealand. These are just a few of the places in foreign countries. This is Austria where I mentioned a little while ago, under the Russian Zone; and even there; we have Old Glory flying there! That is Australia; that is one of the places in Australia. We have the Nazareth Mission Church in Austria. That is Switzerland. This is Australia again, Melbourne, Australia.
MOTHER DIVINE: It is wonderful the way that the Australian Government is granting the Aborigines their rights now!
FATHER: Yes -- the Australian Government. I have broken that line of demarcation in Australia! Then I have called for the Unification of Australia, New Zealand and America!
Mr. Moses: Well, I feel very much honored indeed, for this interview, and I thank YOU very much indeed! The trouble is, I was going to stay but I just remembered I was going to collect my things from the office of my friend. He is not there now. He will be closed around five o'clock.
Mr. Maxwell: Oh, yes, you have received your telephone call since then. It is after five now.
Mr. Moses (to FATHER): Well, I have got to rush along then, because I have got to collect my things.
FATHER: Okay.
Mr. Moses: I honestly wish I could stay much longer and enjoy this fruitful experience much more. I think, however, I am going to have to leave. (At this point, he dictates his full name and address to one of the Secretaries. FATHER then tells him:)
I have some correspondents in Nigeria too. You may know something about it. You may not have been known to be at the Peace Mission, but if I had time I could look up the correspondence; but it was a place, a grant given to some of My Followers, there, for a Church.
Mr. Moses: (surprised): Is that so?
FATHER: And we had planned to build a Church there; and the correspondents, the Followers there, are very elated; and right there in Nigeria! I do not recall now, exactly, but I would have to look up the correspondence.
Mr. Moses: Well, I should be delighted to hear about these men. I must and will have to get in touch with YOU by correspondence, and I do hope YOU will find the time to correspond.
FATHER: Yes. Well, I customarily correspond or respond to any legitimate and sensible and unselfish communication.
Mr. Moses: Yes, yes.
FATHER: Of course, I do not have time to answer all of My Letters, but I send out -- these (indicating the stack of letters) are just a few that I was getting out this morning; just a limited few here! But I do customarily correspond or respond to the most of them.
Mr. Moses: Yes, I see. FATHER: As I said on one occasion at one point there, in this interview: Our Country declared her Independence as a Nation, and those of My True Followers -- the Adherents and Followers of FATHER DIVINE -- they declare their Individual Independence even as our Country declared her Independence as a Nation! I believe that the subjects of the Nation should be equivalently Independent, and should stand for their Independence even as the Country declares and stands for her Independence! But individually, severally and collectively we refuse to take up a collection; we refuse to do any soliciting, borrowing or begging! Mr. Moses: yes. FATHER: And yet My Followers have UNLIMITED PURCHASING POWER! Mr. Moses: Yes. FATHER: Our Churches have so much money, they purchase personal and real property into the Millions of Dollars, through the donations of the Immediate Followers or Church Members to the Church! Since they do not have money for a selfish purpose, when they donate to the Church, the Church, in turn, co-operatively purchases personal and real property, such as the Divine Lorraine up here on North Broad Street! I know you have heard of it since you have been here; and the Tracy Hotel, and other properties, which would belong to the Church directly; but because the Followers donated the money to the Church, the Church did not need it directly for a Church, as a Church -- the owners who donated the money to the Church derive the benefit of it by the purchase of personal and real property in their own names, who donated the money. They are the OWNERS of these hotels and properties! I DO NOT OWN ANYTHING. And they are Independent, as you see here!
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: In Bermuda, Australia and other places My Followers are forbidden to solicit, beg or steal, or buy anything on credit or on the installment plan!
Mr. Moses: Yes.
FATHER: They are forbidden to buy a hotel with a mortgage on it, but pay cash as you go and owe no man, and express your individual independence even as our Country declared it -- her independence -- as a nation!
Mr. Moses: Yes, I think that is very great.
FATHER: So I AM saying that to lift up a Standard, in your consideration, and to raise your Morale in your participation and co-operation with ME! --
Mr. Moses: Thank YOU.
FATHER: to know that it is not for a purpose of lowrating or lowering the Standard of Perfection,
Mr. Moses: Sure, sure. That's right too.
FATHER: or anything of that sort.
Mr. Moses: I appreciate that very much.
FATHER: But to be a Standard that we cannot be ashamed of! I thank you.
Mr. Moses: Well, I think that is the best that I have heard yet! It is a great pleasure and an honor to be with YOU!
FATHER: I regret that you gentlemen have to go. It would be a pleasure to have you break bread with us in our little dining room down here. This is a very small dining room to the majority of the dining rooms we have, but I reside here. A good many of the Followers thought I would reside in the Hotel Riviera in Newark, or at the Divine Lorraine Hotel here in Philadelphia, on the corner of Broad Street and Fairmont Avenue; but I refuse to reside there. I AM happy to reside here in this little insignificant Church and Home, which was, and still is, a Hotel -- but it is small to the larger Hotels -- three-hundred-room Hotels, and such as that.
(At this point FATHER passes each of the gentlemen a paper on which appears FATHER'S various Peace Stamps in proper order. FATHER says:) I think the Secretary passed this over to ME to give you, to let you see and know just the way My Proposals go.
Mr. Moses: (viewing the paper with interest): Oh, I see.
FATHER: Just as you see them here -- first there, and that, and that, and that, (FATHER indicates the various Stamps) and right on down the line! They were communications I had with the different Governments and our own Government.
Mr. Moses: That's right.
FATHER: And I think you can see I have been in the defense of this people and all people universally!
Mr. Moses (collecting several New Days and the Calendar and the Peace Stamps): Thank YOU! Thank YOU, very much, FATHER!
Mr. Maxwell (also taking some New Day, etc.): Thank YOU, FATHER!
FATHER: You are welcome. I don't like to burden you down, but if you would like to take them along I think that will give first-hand information,
Mr. Moses and Mr. Maxwell: Thank YOU very much.
FATHER: excluding that of which I have said. (FATHER then turns to Mr. Maxwell, as both gentlemen are about to make their departure, saying:) MOTHER said She thought maybe you would like to have something to say.
MOTHER DIVINE (to Mr. Maxwell): I thought you started to say something to FATHER.
Mr. Maxwell: Yes. Well, I have always admired FATHER DIVINE and I have been hoping that I would get an opportunity to speak to YOU; and to have a gentleman from a distance of some five thousand miles to come and visit our City, and then have the occasion of coming and visiting YOU, it is a bit ironical, when I am only six blocks from YOU, Sir!
FATHER: Thank you.
Mr. Maxwell: When I have had the desire to visit YOU and express the thought that YOU have carried on a marvelous job for many years! I still say it is Wonderful!
FATHER: Thank you. Well, we are very pleased to have you.
Mr. Maxwell: I am pleased to have spoken to YOU, and I hope and pray that YOU will carry on the Good Work that YOU are doing!
FATHER: And you live right here in the City?
Mr. Maxwell: Yes, Sir. We live at the Business Institute, Sixteenth and Lombard. I am the father and mother, I will say, of that Institute, since around 1947!
FATHER: That is wonderful; I have been here around ten years, now residing here. Of course, I did reside in New York before that time, but it is quite a change taking place democratically since I have been here! No doubt the credit may be given to many different angles and different changes of time and of season, but I can say, and as I was telling your friend, in the time of recent years you can now go in and register in any of the hotels where men of dark complexion could not register!
Mr. Maxwell: That is quite a change!
FATHER: Thank you. Peace!
Mr. Maxwell: Goodbye and thank YOU!
FATHER: You are welcome.
Mr. Moses: I am sorry that I am not going to be able to stay, FATHER.
FATHER: Yes. Well, that is all right. Maybe the next time you come.
(And thus this significant Interview terminated.)
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