The Lounge,
The Divine Lorraine Hotel, Philadelphia, PA.
Among the guests present was the Producing Director and one of the Actresses of the Pasadena Community Playhouse in California as FATHER'S Personal Guests, also Reverend Albert Halloway of Newark, New Jersey, who happened to be staying a few days at the Divine Lorraine Hotel. As we sat, Rev. Halloway commenced talking with FATHER, and thus it was that this beautiful and very significant Interview developed, which, incidentally, was thoroughly enjoyed by all present.
(The foregoing statements are those of the transcriber, after which FATHER, in answer to a question asked quietly by the Reverend, speaks firstly as follows:)
Well, the Scripture does say,
'As in Adam all die so shall in JESUS CHRIST all be made alive!'
Through JESUS CHRIST and His Reproduction and Personification we are enjoying this and these material Blessings, the Beauty of Holiness! I AM turning the brothels into houses of Prayer, according to the Scripture. I AM changing the vile bodies of the children of men in fashion like unto His! This whole nation shall have a New Birth of Freedom, and it is just as operative and expressive and just as positive and sure to be, as it is for in Adam all to die, for in JESUS CHRIST all shall be made alive! Of course, it cannot be seen by the theories and versions and doctrines of men, for those things are hid from them but revealed to babes and sucklings; and I did say whichever,
'Except ye be converted and become as this little child, you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven!'
So it is a wonderful thought to realize the significance of living Evangelically,
self-denied and consecrated!
Rev. Halloway: Well, I mean, if one has been a wicked man and he ran from the wicked ways and came to YOU, I mean, his wickedness, he doesn't have to reap that? Just repent of it? He doesn't have to go through any bodily suffering?
FATHER: Well, "if a man confesses his sins and sees his errors and mistakes and turns from them", says the Scripture,
'he shall surely live, says the LORD, GOD Almighty!" Ezekiel, eighteenth chapter.
You will find the Scripture quotation through both the Old and the New Testaments
bearing witness to what we are demonstrating and what we are emphasizing.
Rev. Halloway: That is true. I have read that and I have read the Scripture, but then I -- (Rev. Halloway pauses.)
FATHER: The Word says,
'Turn, sinner, turn! Why will ye die? GOD your Maker asks you why!'
The average person in the ecclesiastical world thinks within himself or themselves
that all must die because Adam died; yet we did say,
'In Adam all die, but so shall in JESUS CHRIST all be made alive!'
Rev. Halloway: Yes.
FATHER: And,
'If a man keeps My Sayings",
Jesus said,
'he shall never see death!'
About the Resurrection
Rev. Halloway: Yes, I believe that. Now about the Resurrection: Jesus spoke concerning Resurrection, and I want to know how a follower bears himself out on the Resurrection?
FATHER:
'I AM the RESURRECTION and the LIFE. He that believeth on ME, though he was dead, yet shall he live. And he that liveth and believeth on ME shall never die!'
Rev. Halloway: Well, that is absolutely true; He said that. But what I am
trying to get to is this: Those Prophets and Disciples that have completed
their life work and are now sleeping, waiting to be awakened -- when will they
be awakened to enjoy as we are enjoying today at this time? That is what I
am trying to get at.
FATHER DIVINE in His Office
FATHER (smiling and speaking softly):
'GOD is not a GOD of the dead but a GOD of the living!'
Therefore, in the Book of Hebrews, something you often quote as a Holiness minister,
'Follow Peace and Holiness with all men, without which no man shall see the LORD!'
Rev. Halloway: It is true.
FATHER: Also it is written therein,
'This is the Church, the General Assembly of the Church of the Firstborn, where the spirits of Just men are made perfect!'
If we take it politically, if you retrace your thoughts back to what many of
the people of this generation have declared, and speaking of the Emancipation
and the Emancipator legalistically, the often rehearsed statement came forth
by composition,
'Old John Brown's body lies a-moldering in the clay, but his spirit goes marching on!'
Rev. Halloway: Well, I just wondered that -- the spirit is -- what is that spirit? I would like to know about that. Maybe that is where I can't understand fully.
FATHER: Well, being a minister of the Gospel, a teacher of religion and a teacher of the Holy Ghost and thou dost not know what the Spirit is?
Rev. Halloway: Well, I have been teaching it and I have never been able to explain it -- the soul and the spirit of man. And I have heard so many different terms preached of it -- of the soul of man -- and no one has just put their finger on it and said, "This is it!" but everyone terms it something different or something within, but yet they can never see where it goes or when it leaves men!
FATHER: Well, that is true.
Rev. Halloway: The spirit that comes out of man, I don't know where it goes! We have a soul within; I don't know where that goes!
FATHER: Is it not written,
'It shall die . . .'
Rev. Halloway: Shall die -- yes.
FATHER:
'. . . but the Spirit returneth to the GOD Who gave it"?
There must have been some differences between the soul and the spirit. That is
why one of the writers said,
'The Word of GOD is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, even piercing between the joint and the marrow, to sever asunder the soul and the spirit!'
So, Webster may say the soul is the spirit; but GOD may say HE breathed in man
the Breath of Life, in other words, HE breathed in Adam the Breath of Life and
the man became a living soul! So therefore, we realize, as long as the Spirit
of Life remains in the individual, that soul liveth; but when the Spirit goeth
out of a man -- the Spirit or Breath of Life goes out of a man -- that soul dies!
Rev. Halloway: That is true -- and yet there is one more question: I am wondering and puzzling over this: Now Revelation said, under the altar the souls were crying to GOD, "How long?"-- and that one passage of Scripture I have never understood; whilst I don't understand all of the Bible, whilst I am a preacher of it; I guess no one who preaches ever understands all of it. The Bible is a hard Book. It is a revealed Book and all has not been revealed! Now it says, the souls under the altar are crying, "How long?" And what souls are they? They are crying so long, and then the Voice comes back to them, saying, "It is a little while until your sisters and brothers have been persecuted for Righteousness' sake and then you will receive your Crown!" That is one passage of Scripture I have never been able to unravel, because I believe, as YOU said, the soul of a man is man, and the breath he breathes is Life; and when the breath goes out, the soul dies, but the breath lives on. That is one passage of Scripture I can't understand. What did GOD mean when HE said that?
FATHER: You have seen, no doubt, in your life's career, visions and dreams of many things; some things that were not interpretable; some things you could no doubt immediately interpret; but some things may need no interpretation because they may be explanatory in themselves apparently. But as there are those things that have been seen and heard in the Spirit or by dreams or visions must be interpreted;
'GOD is His Own Interpreter and HE will make it plain!'
Rev. Halloway: Yes.
FATHER: That is why one writer did say,
'He that lacketh knowledge, let him ask of GOD Who giveth liberally and upbraideth not; for these things are hid from the wise and prudent but revealed unto babes and sucklings.!'
Rev. Halloway: Yes.
FATHER: Therefore, the human intellect cannot explain all of the mysteries of GOD for they are hid to them! And I say Myself that it is not by power nor by might but by My Spirit, says the LORD! By My Spirit I accomplish these things that cannot be understood!
Rev. Halloway: Yes.
FATHER: It is My Spirit that does it! It is wonderful! My Spirit moves on the hearts and minds of men automatically and teaches and tells them something! It changes their vile bodies from vice and from crime and from sin and debauchery without My telling them to do it! You see the mystery?
Rev. Halloway: Yes.
FATHER: My Followers -- not a True Follower of Mine would smoke a cigarette! Not a True Follower of Mine would smoke a cigar or pipe or anything of that sort! I mention these little no-harm things that are commonly considered as no-harm among the religions. You might know a True Follower of Mine would not indulge in drinking intoxicating liquors!
Rev. Halloway: Yes, I know that.
FATHER: Though we have all of these things at our disposal, and I take these brothels and turn them into Houses of Prayer, even as this one. (FATHER indicates the beautifully-appointed Cocktail Lounge in which we were sitting, in such an Atmosphere of Holiness and Quietness, drinking not the intoxicating liquors of mortality but rather drinking in His Holy, Precious, Life-giving Words! FATHER continues:)
It is Wonderful! Changing the minds of men; men of vice and crime and sin and debauchery of every kind, without I telling them to get down and receive the Holy Ghost! -- I put My Spirit in them and cause them to walk in My Statutes. Automatically they do it! They do not want to drink! They do not wish to smoke! They sacrifice all of their mortal hobbies, all of their fancies and tendencies and pleasures! Men and women, both young and old, are willing to sacrifice everything that they would ordinarily indulge in -- for MY NAME'S SAKE! It is Wonderful!
Rev. Halloway: It is!
FATHER: The prayers of all religions cannot force people to stop drinking, stop smoking and stop indulging in the opposite sex and human lust and passion, but My Spirit Does It! My Spirit caused them to make the sacrifice of all of those things, matters not how young they may be or how old they may be. That is what My Spirit Will Do!
So then these things cannot be understood. "How can YOU do it?" some would think and some would say.
Rev. Halloway: That's right.
FATHER: How can I get the "other fellow" -- by the religions better known as the "D" by them -- out of them and cause them to pay back all old bills and refuse to buy on credit or on the installment plan? Because I said so!
Assembly: It is Wonderful!
FATHER: I said to lift up a Standard of True Citizenry and Real Democracy and to express a Citizenry of Real Independency even as our Country declared her Independence as a Nation! Not a True Follower of Mine is a dependent!
Assembly: It is so true!
FATHER: I mean, Religion and Americanism, Democracy and Christianity, I make them Synonymous, for I convert them to Righteousness! Even our religion -- I mean, our Conviction of our Democracy and, I might say, as being termed our Citizenry, converted into Righteousness religiously, will cause men to walk in My Statutes and express an Independence that can compete with the Declaration of Independence, where not a one will be dependent! It is Wonderful! Express our Pledge of Allegiance to our Flag in the Actuated Words of expression and demonstrate it by the Amalgamation of all nations, all languages, all tongues and all people, we are ONE NATION, INDIVISIBLE! Can you not see the mystery?
Rev. Halloway: Yes.
FATHER: Therefore, who can slightly get back at ME? I AM Fulfilling the Gospel! I AM Fulfilling the Citizenry of a True Democracy, Brotherhood and Christianity! I AM Fulfilling the Truth of True Judaism and bringing both it and them into Subjection by the Unity of the Spirit, of Mind, of Aim and of Purpose! By the Spirit of CHRIST I AM Converting Them!
Men speak of the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag and say, "I pledge Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America", and do not believe a thing of it! This is just a Slight Demonstration of it!
Rev. Halloway: Yes, I see.
FATHER: We are One Nation, Indivisible! -- and I have gone them many steps further: we are One Family, Indivisible, and I will not have another! Can you not see the mystery? I think I had better stop!
Rev. Halloway: I thank YOU. It is Wonderful!
FATHER: It IS Wonderful! We are making all of the families on earth ONE. I AM bringing them all into subjection to the ONE and the ONLY ONE, of Whom shall, as predicted to, reign as LORD of lords and as KING of kings!
This does not necessarily mean a person or personage; not even the Personality of GOD; for I Transcend My Personality and have others to do the same! But as the Principle of Mathematics rules the world of accounts, so this Principle of Life I AM emphasizing and advocating shall rule the world UNIVERSALLY! For,
'HE rules the world with Truth and Grace, and makes the nations prove the Glory of His Righteousness and the wonders of His Love!'
Assembly: Oh, it is wonderful!
FATHER: HE rules on the throne of the minds of the children of men.
Rev. Halloway: That is very true.
FATHER: David declared,
'Righteousness and Judgment are the habitation of His Throne!'
Lay the Foundation firstly, of Righteousness, and build thereupon. CHRIST will
surely come and be enthroned in His Throne and reign on the throne of the minds
of them, and non can slightly hinder HIM! It is wonderful! And just as it is
right here, so shall it be some day all over this wide extended plane, for none
shall lack in GOD'S Abundance! All shall live in Splendor and shall have a-full
and a-plenty even as I have it jurisdictionally!
This is not a supposition; no longer an imagination; no longer a vision; no longer a dream! GOD spoke back in the days of the Law concerning Moses. HE said,
'If there is a prophet among you"--
HE would speak to(him) in dark visions and dreams,
'but My Servant Moses is not so! Him the LORD will Speak to even Mouth to mouth apparently.'
So, "GOD works in a mysterious way!"
Rev. Halloway: That is true.
FATHER: And if the people of the earth will let ME, I will HELP them! -- the rich and the poor, the high and the low, the great and the small, the mighty and the little; those who are limited, and everyone, needs this of which I AM now speaking!
Abraham Lincoln did not mention just the slaveric people having the New Birth of Freedom, but he knew all of them needed it. "This whole nation!" yes, "this whole nation might have a new birth of freedom under GOD!" -- under GOD'S administration into which I AM now administering; at least, ministering the Gospel. In this Administration all people shall have a new birth of freedom! (At this point FATHER shows the minister the latest Peace Stamp as it appeared on one of the out-going letters to be mailed. FATHER says:) That is My most recent Stamp; just came from the press the other day. It is Wonderful! WONDERFUL!
Rev. Halloway (reading): :This is GOD'S Administration, and all nations, this whole generation and even our present Civilization shall have a New Birth of Freedom under GOD, for I declare that Americanism, Brotherhood, Democracy, Christianity and Judaism are synonymous. Rev. M. J. Divine, Ms. D., D. D."
Rev. Halloway: Yes, I see.
FATHER: Some people thought, no doubt, or would have thought that Abraham Lincoln wanted the nation -- at least, wanted the slave people to be free. But those who were not slaves were not free! Therefore, the whole nation needed to have a New Birth of Freedom; for,
'If you continue in My Words", said Jesus, "ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free!'
Assembly: Yes.
FATHER: Through CHRIST in this Doctrine men are set free from racism, from division, from sectarianism, from nationalism and from all of the isms that spell division, and they are amalgamated together as one man at Jerusalem! It is wonderful! Wonderful! WONDERFUL! I think I had better stop!
Rev. Halloway: Well, Jesus, will He be here in a Body any time? -- the Body HE left with?
FATHER (smiling sweetly): If you allow Him to be in your body, the CHRIST will be in your body! "Know ye not your bodies are the Temples of the Living GOD and GOD has said, I will walk in them and dwell in them'?" It did not just say the Spirit but the Temple of the Living GOD! And it is written again as John saw it in Revelation, the twenty-first chapter, he saw "a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH, for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and I, John, saw the Holy City and the New Jerusalem coming down from GOD out of Heaven!" Jesus had already told them to pray to let THY KINGDOM COME and THY WILL be DONE here on EARTH, and some could not understand that. "LORD, when is the Kingdom coming?" What did Jesus say?
'The KINGDOM of GOD is within you!'
The same spirit is speaking today! I am telling you now! I am reiterating it
to you as I did to them! I thank you!
(And with these final dynamic Words of Spirit and Life, this beautiful and soul-stirring Interview terminated.)
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