FATHER and MOTHER DIVINE on the sun deck at
The Mount of the House of the Lord
(A request having been made by Reverend Cherry of the First Methodist Church, Roxborough, for a speaker or speakers from the Peace Mission to address his congregation, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Samuel consented. Reverend Cherry greeted them cordially, then led his congregation in prayer as follows:)
At this meeting tonight we thank You for the privilege of gathering in Thy Name in this place. We thank You for the presence of those who have come to speak to us tonight. We invoke the guidance of Thy Holy Spirit because we do believe that Thou shalt lead us into all truth. May our hearts be warm as we hear this testimony. May we examine our own souls for the sincerity of our own faith and of our own purposes in life. May we feel that whatever our name or sign, as we go forward under Thy Leadership we shall be doing Thy Will and we shall be helping Thee by so doing to bring in the Kingdom of God. So we pray, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Our speaker tonight is Mr. John Wilson and he is going to make a presentation first of all, I think, perhaps, of a Sermon. Anyway, I'll let him explain to you what he's going to do. And then after the presentation we're going to have a question period as before, and you may address your questions either to Mr. Wilson or to Mr. Samuel.
(Mr. Wilson speaks as follows:)
Thank you, Reverend Cherry and members of the congregation: As many of you probably know, the salutation of the Peace Mission Movement is "Peace", and we usually open our presentations of anything that we have to say with recognizing Deity as we understand Him, by saying: Peace, Father, Peace, Mother, and then Peace, everyone. So, I would like to use that salutation with you.
As Reverend Cherry has mentioned, we have brought a very brief recorded Sermon of Father's; it is about twelve minutes in length. It was presented to a group of Presbyterian ministers who were visiting us at Father's Headquarters some five years ago and it was played at the Table the other day, at Father's Banquet Table, and when I heard it I knew that I wanted to bring it tonight so that you could hear it.
(At this time Mr. Wilson plays the Sermon, which is entitled: "By Learning More of Each Other We Learn to Love Each Other Better.", given by Father on May 24, 1956. At its conclusion Mr. Wilson says:)
Now that we have heard Father, I had a conversation with Dr. Cherry some time back in December and I did not know exactly what procedure you had or what you would like to know, but he gave me a very general outline which would be a bit of the history of the Peace Mission Movement and who are we, the followers of Father Divine; from whence do we come; what is our mission; what actually are we working for; what is our goal in the Peace Mission Movement? And then, perhaps, you may want to ask some questions.
Well, I will refer to or begin first with a little brief history. We in the Peace Mission Movement do not subscribe to time. We strive to put that out of our conscious mentality, because time actually is merely a series of events. We do not remember particularly 1935 from 1936 except, perhaps, there was an event that happened to happen in 1935. So we feel that there is no time in God, there is no restriction in God, so we are striving to put out of our consciousness anything that would seek to limit God in our bodies and in our minds. So far as history is concerned, we seek to associate ourselves with God, loving Him with all of our heart, with all of our soul, with all of our mind and with all of our strength as the first Commandment says, and then to realize that God is Eternal; He is from Everlasting to Everlasting; and as our Crusaders' Creed says, we believe we have been with God from the foundation of the world; therefore, we do not subscribe to time and we do not refer to history as such, except, perhaps, referring to Pilgrim's Progress and Christian's journey from the City of Destruction to the Celestial City; that, perhaps, as an allegory of the life of mankind, coming back to the consciousness of God's Presence; and that one day is with God as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. However, there is a great mystery!
In 1919, approximately, the people in Sayville, Long Island, experienced a very strange phenomenon. There was a very strange One Who came into their midst and was apparently feeding thousands of people with no apparent source of income. The hungry, the lost, the wayward, the bitter, the frustrated; the mental and physical ailing who heard about this strange One. They filled the house and the lawn and overflowed into the street and created a bit of a traffic problem. And then, of course, there were mortal values that came into conflict. People valued houses, property; so there was a conflict. But for those years, Father spread His Banquet Table. And then, apparently in the very deep of the depression, there was an area in New York City that was desperate. You remember how it was back in those days. And to those who needed Him most desperately, to the very lowest, Father Divine came, and as He says,
'I came as the poorest among men, yet making many rich.'
So, that's where Father, even back in Sayville, received a lot of publicity;
some of it good, some of it indifferent, some of it bitterly antagonistic, for
various reasons.
So from that time until this, Father took those people, and those people were willing to give their live as a service to mankind; thereby serving God. We serve God by serving our fellowman. No Follower of Father Divine has ever given Father Divine a penny. That is the great mystery!
Well, "Where does Father Divine get so much money from?" Well, Father says, the same place He gets so much love and compassion and consideration from!
'The Spirit of the Consciousness of the Presence of God is the Source of all Supply and it will satisfy every Good Desire!'
Now that, with many, is a motto. It's something that you say intellectually and
it may have a certain rhythmic quality about it, but with Father Divine and the
true Followers of Father Divine, that is a dynamic reality, and that is the great
mystery of Father Divine! He is a dynamic phenomenon that we do not even pretend
to understand; yet, there has never been one that I have found that is so free
from guile, so free from conflicts and is so utterly, utterly meek!
I cannot explain Father Divine. I can only do what Father Divine desires me to do what I think that Father Divine would want me to do and He would not Personally tell me to do anything. He did not tell me to come here. He merely made the opportunity available that if I wished to come I could come and Father's wish is our command; make no mistake about that!
So these people who were willing to give their lives as a living sacrifice, as Paul said in the twelfth chapter of Romans, the first verse:
'I beseech thee therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.'
Well, this group of people from every country, from every level of society, from
every cultural level, from every intellectual level, came as representatives
to Father Divine, putting behind them that which is behind and setting their
face toward that which lies ahead, which is the fulfillment of the Christ Nature
in these bodies.
They came; they took jobs. Some left positions of some consideration and took jobs washing cars on used car lots, cleaning the cellars, the back yards of people, to make an honest dollar for an honest day's work; never taking a thing that they do not rightfully work for. And because they have a very low cost of living they are able to save considerable amounts of money. You see, our overhead is quite low, because if we do not spend money for those things that other people consider as part of their culture, their society and various social relationships and associations, there really isn't a great cost to living, even today!
So those people who worked at the prevailing wage scale, salary level, take what is left over for their own personal needs and to make them personally independent to where they do not owe any man not owe any man one red penny, but depend on God whole-heartedly then take what's left over, as Father says, gather up the fragments, as Jesus had them to gather up the fragments after He fed the five thousand, you remember? He said,
'Gather up all the fragments so that nothing be wasted.'
Well, Father says, gather up the fragments that you have left over, that you
don't need for your own needs; for your clothing, for your food, for paying your
just debts and for being independent; and then, put that money to work for the
common good of all mankind, without prejudice; because money is to be put to
work not to be stashed away or be hidden because it is something to exchange,
to keep the trade world in operation; never fearing, because God will take care
of His people.
And they have bought houses, they have bought hotels, they have bought sorority houses for the sisters what we call sorority houses; and fraternity houses for the brothers. And then at a very low amount anyone, it doesn't matter who he is; from whence he comes; his so-called extraction or anything; all he has to do is behave himself. All he has to do is to refrain from such habits within the bounds of the house or hotel; refrain from smoking because it does create an odor that those who do not smoke find somewhat offensive; refrain from participating in any what we consider to be unevangelical activities, such as familiarity with the opposite sex; and do not participate in intoxicating drinks. That's all they have to do. We do not care what they do outside. But they can come in and they can get a space for a nominal fee and live there, breaking down those old lines of prejudice and bigotry that have held man in bondage, even the one who is up as well as the one who is down. We cannot enslave anyone without having to stay down there with him to keep him down!
Now that is the history of the Peace Mission Movement in general, up to the present time. How is my time, Dr. Cherry? (Rev. Cherry quickly says: "Oh, go ahead. Take all the time you want!" Mr. Wilson says, "All right", and continues:)
Now, who are we? As I referred some while back, we are every man. There is a play that comes down to us it is considered a classic from medieval times, in drama, entitled, "Everyman". That would be the Followers of Father Divine. We are every man and yet we are no man. We do not come to bear record of ourselves, because every true Follower of Father Divine has reached his extremity from one standpoint or another. He has reached it socially or psychologically or economically, or in some way every Follower of Father Divine has reached that place in his life to where he could see no answer.
He tried everything that he could think of. If he was of the well, we could say, the middle or upper middle class of America, or perhaps some higher than that he has tried psychiatry, he has tried everything. And when nothing else could help, in the very depths of despair, as a very last resort, that one has come to Father Divine. I would not have come myself if I had not reached that place. But as Jesus said when He gave His call to all mankind:
'Come unto Me, all ye that are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take My Yoke upon you and learn of Me for I am Meek and Lowly in heart and ye shall find rest for your souls!'
That is what we have found in Father Divine!
We are people who vary from every conceivable background; from perhaps what we would consider the most rude of cultures of Central America and perhaps other areas in the world that are considered culturally backward, we are from those cultures or parts of civilization. The most unlettered, without any concept of the social graces, and yet we are also those who hold the Doctor's Degree, and all levels in between. We are from the extremes of the expression of humanity on the face of the earth. We who, perhaps, may have felt that we came from at least a middle class culture love Father the same way that those who have come from no culture. We love Him because He came as apparently One extremiated Himself. As one has said, the giraffe can always, with his long neck, reach down and partake; but those little animals without a long neck can't reach up very high.
So Father came spreading His Table so that every one of us could eat, spiritually, intellectually, and then anyone who has ever sat at Father Divine's Table knows that we eat physically! No one has ever set a banquet table, in my experience, to compare with it!
Now, what is our goal? What is our mission? Our mission is two-fold. One is to carry out the reality of propagating the Presence of God on earth so that every human being and every animal and even the very plants are saturated and impregnated with the very literal Presence of God. And the other is the fulfillment of the Prayer that Jesus taught us to pray:
'Let Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.'
Now, where is heaven? I am testifying now of our conviction. We do not mean to
imply in any way whatsoever anyone's conviction of heaven, because Father says,
what a person's highest intuition is, that is the very foundation of his faith.
We do not coerce anyone to believe our way. They could not do it simply by intellectually
saying we will agree to that. It takes too much self-denial! So I would be the
last one to try to persuade anyone anything to any extent at any time. But to
us heaven is a state of consciousness. It's where God is.
Where is a kingdom? It's where the king reigns. Where is heaven? It's where God rules supreme. Where did Jesus say it was? Within you! So we of the Peace Mission Movement are not interested particularly in any place geographically; we are interested in bringing the Christ consciousness to fruition in our bodies wherever we may be, whether it's in Philadelphia, U.S.A., or in Capetown, or in Berlin, or in Moscow, or in Tokyo; because there's no place where God is not. It's only man's lack of consciousness in His Presence. The lack is not in God, it's in man, because when man disobeyed God he withdrew himself from God's Presence; and man has been lost from one degree to another ever since!
But Jesus came that He may lead us back to the Father, so that when we find our Father we are at home because then we know who we are and we know to which family we belong. We may call it the Kingdom of God, we may call it the Family of God whatever we may choose to call it, it's Heaven just the same so that when even a small group or an individual or large multitudes of people have reached this place in consciousness that they are conscious of God's Presence not from a suppositional standpoint but from an actual, practical, real standpoint, then the very atmosphere in which they live and move and have their being is Heaven.
That's why we do not recognize the "other fellow". What do we want to give him a body for if we don't give God one? Some people will go around and say, "There's the old so-and-so (the other fellow)!" or "He's as mean as the so-and-so!" but we never say, "He is like God", or "He is a saint", or "He or she is an angel", unless we are meaning it from, perhaps, a romantic standpoint and that many times does not last very long! But Father says, if we will give God a body in our consciousness and in our heart and in our life and deny the reality and the characteristics of the "other fellow", then that which we vividly visualize and concentrate upon we gradually materialize psychologically and spiritually and that is the mission of the Peace Mission Movement!
It's a long process, but man did not fall this far from God overnight; he has been centuries; and it may take centuries for him to come back!
Then, of course, the question of passing from the body. Father says as in Jesus,
'He that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believeth thou this?'
Well, there have been many interpretations. Some say, "Well, that means
spiritually." Yes, but those who pass outside of the concept of Christianity
pass the same way, and many times with a lot more of grace and with a lot less
suffering. We believe that Jesus meant it literally, but He meant that we had
to bring the Christ to fruition in this body, and then when the perfect incarnation
of the Spirit takes the place of every carnal tendency and every imperfect expression
and we finally become to be perfect as our heavenly Father is Perfect, then the
Spirit will be materialized in these bodies and they shall never die. Well, what
of those who do? Nothing ever happens accidentally.
'The wheels of justice grind slowly,
as one said,
'but they grind exceedingly fine.'
And for every effect there is a cause. If anyone is sick there is a reason. If
I show in any way in my body an attitude that is unlike Christ, there is a reason;
and we shall pay, as Jesus said, to the uttermost farthing for every deed and
every thought and every word in this body. God will settle for nothing less than
perfection!
So the question, then, is reincarnation. God will give it a body that pleases Him. That's why some come into the world with a higher spiritual understanding than others, with talents that others do not have. It's a spiritual reincarnation of God given the body, not man. Man cannot create anything. The illusion of the Garden of Eden is merely an illusion. When Adam and Eve conceived they conceived through banishment, nothing more, nothing less, because God is the Creator. Man has never been and will never be.
Now, Dr. Cherry, I must conclude. I know that I could talk and I could talk but I mustn't bore you. That's Father's first consideration, I must not bore you. So if I could, then, leave it then for any questions that any may ask.
(Rev. Cherry speaks:)
Well, thank you very much, Mr. Wilson. I've taken some notes here and they are for the clarification of my own thinking and perhaps of those who might have some of these questions in their minds too. Let me initiate the question period by asking you a couple of questions.
Am I quite correct in believing, then, that the basic idea back of the Peace Mission is that all of us are to be bodies of the living Father, so that as time goes on, our actual physical bodies become transformed into the spiritual body that the Bible speaks about; consequently, this deathlessness that you speak of eventually takes place is this what you mean?
Mr. Wilson: Yes, that is the way we look at it.
Rev. Cherry: Now, as for those who actually experience death as we understand it this means that this transformation has not yet taken place correct?
Mr. Wilson: Exactly.
Rev. Cherry: The time will come, however, when on the earth there will be those who will have become so transformed and then what we think of as Heaven will now be fully realized upon the earth. Is that correct?
Mr. Wilson: Yes, it is with John in Revelation who said: "I saw a new heaven and a new earth coming down from God out of heaven."
Rev. Cherry: Yes. Correct. Now one more thing. You said that you did not recognize the "other fellow" because all of us become the incarnation of the same Divine Father isn't that the idea?
Mr. Wilson: Yes.
Rev. Cherry: Okay. Well, then, do we lose our individuality in God? That's the question I'm leading up to.
Mr. Wilson: We do in our own consciousness. Jesus said:
'I came not to bear record or bear witness of Myself. I came to do the Will of My Father.'
If I'm willing to become nothing in my own consciousness, then God in Himself,
trusting that body and using that body, will exalt Himself in that body; but
it will be no more Paul, or John, or Dr. Cherry, or Mr. Wilson, but they will
be Sons of the Living God.
Rev. Cherry: Well, will there be individuals or will it just be God in the long run?
Mr. Wilson: It will be God in individuals.
Rev. Cherry: There will be individuals and the individuals will have units of consciousness, presumably, but they will be so much in fellowship that there will be no distinction is this the idea?
Mr. Wilson: Yes, as Jesus. Jesus as the example.
Rev. Cherry: We'll all be like Jesus.
Mr. Wilson: Yes.
Rev. Cherry: All right. Now, am I right in thinking that Father Divine, as He is known now among you, is the current earthly manifestation of God? Is this a fair statement to make?
Mr. Wilson: Yes, it is.
Rev. Cherry: And this is the current manifestation as in the past, from time to time through the centuries, God has similarly manifested Himself.
Mr. Wilson: Yes.
Rev. Cherry: And as God manifested Himself in Christ Himself, is that right?
Mr. Wilson: Yes.
Rev. Cherry: But therefore I'll through with this but the current manifestation is not contrary to, but continuous with the manifestation in Christ am I right about this?
Mr. Wilson: Yes, absolutely.
Rev. Cherry: Then, may we suppose that Father Divine is Himself deathless so that you do not look for any, what we call, death in His case?
Mr. Wilson: Correct.
Rev. Cherry: He will, one of these days, simply disappear, perhaps, to re-appear in some other generation something like this is this fair?
Mr. Wilson: Not necessarily.
Rev. Cherry: So would you explain that part to us.
Mr. Wilson: God, being impersonal and universal and Spirit, is from everlasting to everlasting with or without a Body. Mankind loves the flesh; he loves his body. With God, the Body is irrelevant. With or without It God is the Same! God, though, created man as His Son, as His Offspring, and He made him perfect and beautiful to behold, and completely innocent, but not a robot; and He placed him on the earth as an earth creature. The creation that God has on other planets is irrelevant to us. We are the creation of this planet. That's why we all want to stay here. I've never seen very many people who wanted to go!
Now when mankind fell through disobedience he lost the consciousness of God's Presence and he became a wanderer through the earth, and he realized that he was impure; there was something impure about himself; so it became necessary for him to cover himself. But the delusion was in his own mind. That's why we do not hesitate that we love God's Body, but it's with a pure undefiled love it is not with the love of mortality.
So God, in order to lead His Creation which He created in bodies and allowed to be reproduced through reproduction of mortality, has condescended in many instances, in the past, to a degree of expression, to lead this creation back to Himself.
Moses was an expression of Deity, to an extent, to the children of Israel. As the Scripture says, "Ye shall be God to them." Because they had to see somebody; they had to see someone; they came to the foot of Mount Sinai and God, the Omnipotent God, thundered down and the people got scared and they said, "We will listen to you, Moses." They were willing to listen to Moses then because he was the meekness of God. No one was ever so meek. But he was expressing a high degree of Deity as far as creation was concerned. And for one little act of disobedience God removed him Personally just for striking a little rock and saying irreverently about "Shall I strike this rock and out will pour water so you people can have something to drink?" and God held him responsible; because with all sin against our own state of consciousness or enlightenment. That's why I can't answer for you, nor you for me; but that was the expression of God to that expression.
God at other times revealed Himself from time to time. He revealed Himself in a mystical way in the fiery furnace, because Nebuchadnezzar looked in there and he said,
'Didn't we throw three in? Now I see a fourth one who is like unto the Son of God!'
That was the personification to that extent. Very mystical, yes, but to that
extent.
And then God appeared as an angel to Joseph to tell him not to hurt Mary.
'Don't touch Her!'
That's the Virgin Mother of God to bring forth God's Body in the Sonship Degree.
Don't touch Her, Joseph!"
And then the highest expression of Deity known to Christianity is the Sonship Degree of expression in Jesus of Nazareth Jesus, the incarnation of God from the standpoint of the Sonship Degree of relationship. May I have a moment to refer to Jesus?
Rev. Cherry: Sure, take all the time you want. Bring us up to the present time.
Mr. Wilson: I'm going to. I'm having to say that to get up to this angle, so you will see what we mean.
Then Jesus, you know, was born, according to His society, the illegitimate son of a Jewish peasant girl who was of the lineage of David, in Bethlehem, who couldn't find acceptance in a hotel or a private home in Bethlehem to give birth, but in a stable. As the meekest expression God condescended to bring forth Himself in the Sonship Degree of Jesus; as the lowest; but yet He's God!
Then Jesus said,
'It is expedient that I go away, but I will come again in the Glory of My Father.'
In other words, as Isaiah said,
'Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given and the government shall be upon His Shoulder, and you shall call His Name Immanuel.'
And then it goes on in another verse to say:
'He shall be the Prince of Peace, the Everlasting Father.'
But in Jesus' expression it was not achieved to the Father. It was not His mission.
But He was to come again in the Glory of His Father; in other words, in the Fathership
Degree of expression of incarnation the embodiment so that this lost creation
may see a Body as a living Perfect Example and then the people will gather unto
Him!
Father Divine is to us the incarnation of Deity, of God, in the Fathership Degree of Administration, in Office, so that His Creation may look upon Him as the EMBODIMENT even as they looked upon Jesus as the Embodiment of the Son, and say, "OUR FATHER."
Father Divine is God Eternally with or without His Body, but that does not mean that His Body will ever pass. We do not accept death. It takes sin to die. Father Divine is without sin. He would have to be, and He is to us, to be Deity! So with or without His Body, Father Divine is God to us. Is that an answer?
Rev. Cherry: So then His Body could die but that wouldn't affect the situation. Is that it?
Mr. Wilson: No, His Body could not die to us.
Rev. Cherry: Then His Body could not die.
Mr. Wilson: No, it could not die.
Rev. Cherry: Yes. All right. That's what I wanted to get clear. Are there any other questions?
Gentleman: I think one of your first statements was about laboring and working, etc.. It has to be manual labor, is that correct?
Mr. Wilson: No, sir.
Gentleman: I thought that was implied. You sort of indicated the lowest type of jobs, and so on.
Mr. Wilson: Yes, I could have left that impression. It means that those who came did accept those, because it does not make any difference with us; but laboring with what we had and what God had given us it may be completely with the mind.
Gentleman: Well, you indicated people had given up responsible positions, possibly.
Mr. Wilson: Yes, I did.
Gentleman: And I was wondering if that was part of the training.
Mr. Wilson: It's like an hour glass; you come back to your own, but after going through this purification of selflessness . . .
Rev. Cherry: All right. Any other questions?
Another Gentleman: Does Father Divine have a wife?
Mr. Wilson: Yes, Mother Divine is the Wife of Father Divine, and Mother Divine is to us the fulfillment of the Scripture where the Bride of Christ shall come and She will be arrayed, as Revelation has it, in white linen; in other words, the Purity of Her Character. And that is the fulfillment of the Marriage of God and man, the fusion of heaven and earth in consciousness. And so, we are the Bride of Christ; the Church is the Bride of Christ. Mother Divine is the Symbol of the Bride of Christ and She is Virgin. She has never been touched. She shall never be touched.
Rev. Cherry: All right, any other questions?
Another Gentleman: Could I ask about the term "Peace Mission"? Could you explain that a little more Peace Mission as such?
Mr. Wilson: Yes, you could just turn the term around: The mission of Peace on earth. Just like people, many people say, "Our Divine Father"; in other words, putting the quality of Deity, using it as an adjective and using Father, then, as the proper noun. Well, we place to two together. Father Divine: Deity in the Fathership Degree of expression. We personify it in Father. That's the only difference. Change the adjective to the noun. That's what it means to us.
Rev. Cherry: All right.
Lady: Do all Followers of Father Divine, do they live communally? Do they live in a hotel together or do they live in separate establishments?
Mr. Wilson: Yes and no. We have a large group living in the hotels. And in the hotels such as the Lorraine and such as the Tracy here in Philadelphia, the brothers have floors assigned to them and the sisters have floors assigned to them in the hotels. Now the other houses are completely separate houses for brothers alone and houses for sisters alone. The hotels are open to the public but the houses, sorority and fraternity houses, are for the benefit of the Followers themselves. They are not as hotels. That's the difference. And then there are large numbers who work in their various businesses, etc., and they live as private citizens in their own homes just the same as everyone else.
Rev. Cherry: Well, strictly speaking, the Movement does not believe in marriage. Now if you are married and have a family, of course, you can keep on living that way. But actually, is this true, actually you are transforming the carnal into the spiritual, so that the marriage relationship actually is not part of your Teaching as such. Is this correct or not correct?
Mr. Wilson: That's correct; that marriage is a state of mind. Father being married to His Church fulfills in us, in our spiritual relationship, what mortality thinks it must have in life. As Jesus said: there are eunuchs who have been made so by man; there are eunuchs who have been made so from their birth, and then there are eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake; and that when a person is fulfilled within himself, he will not participate.
The leader of your wonderful Church was a celibate, you know John Wesley. Mr. Wesley married, but because of his realization in a high state of consciousness that he could not gratify himself he had a bit of difficulty with Mrs. Wesley and the marriage did not last. But Mr. Wesley was a celibate, as you no doubt know.
Lady: Did you say that this Movement began in 1919 that Father Divine came then to establish His Movement?
Mr. Wilson: No, I probably, even with my efforts to prevent associating with history, I still didn't succeed in saying that this is where well, many, many years before that, there was this mysterious One Father. But in answering your question I should rather say that this was the time, around 1919, where He came to the consciousness of the newspapers and so much publicity began to mushroom all around.
Lady: But then you believe that He was, before this time, and He was still doing His good Work before that time.
Mr. Wilson: Yes.
Lady: Even though we here in Philadelphia and here in the states did not know of Him until around 1919 is that right?
Mr. Wilson: Well, God is impersonal and universal.
Lady: Yes.
Mr. Wilson: His own particular Body is just as much a mystery to us as it is to you, no doubt, but God materializes or can materialize Himself, as necessary, just as He did in the fiery furnace.
John Wesley was a beautiful incarnation of a high expression of spirituality that just can't you can't handle it! (Turning to Rev. Cherry:) May I make just one reference to Mr. Wesley?
Rev. Cherry: Go ahead.
Mr. Wilson: He was preaching in the fields this one, this priest, who was somewhat egotistical and self-righteous, to an extent and came to Georgia and tried to convert the Indians, as you know, in your own church history, and he said, "Now I've come to save the Indians, now who is going to save me?" But he wasn't too successful in Georgia.
But he went down one Wednesday evening, I think, in 1738 wasn't it 1738 when he went down to Alders gate Street?
Rev. Cherry: Yes, that's right.
Mr. Wilson: He went down to this prayer meeting, and there Mr. Wesley fount Deity real! The Spirit within him was renovated and called forth into expression; and Mr. Wesley was trying to tell the people of England what had happened here and they turned their churches they locked their church doors on him. Even his father's church, wasn't it? He went in to preach at his own father's church and they said, "We don't want you in here, spreading that here!" And he went out and preached on his father's monument, I believe.
Rev. Cherry: Correct.
Mr. Wilson: Yes. He said, "If they won't let me preach in there I'll preach out here!" So he went to the fields. And, of course, there was a lot of labor unrest, etc., and multitudes followed this strange one. And it said in one illustration I don't know, but I can easily believe it because it's so real that Mr. Wesley was preaching and they stoned him many times, you know, and they spat upon him and ridiculed him and they did every conceivable thing that the low mortal mind of man is capable of.
And one day, after he had completed his sermon, it is said that there was a huge man who many people get antagonistic, you know and so because there was something personal, I think his wife was interested in this Methodist movement or something, and he was enraged, and he came storming up to Mr. Wesley with this big stone in his hand; he was going to crush his head with it. And the story goes that he was reaching back to crush his head and Mr. Wesley being short, you know, just looked at him without any guile, without any hatred, with that selflessness that the reality of the Spirit of God can produce; and this raging one caught the look in his eye, and suddenly right in the middle of his act it stopped him; and it said he just was held motionless there for a moment, and then his hand relaxed and he dropped the stone, and his hand just reached over and caressed Mr. Wesley's head! It's the same force that closed the lions' jaws, because the roaring beasts looked in the guileless eyes of Daniel; they couldn't do a thing. The same with Mr. Wesley.
Rev. Cherry: All right, Fine. Anyone else?
Lady: Well, you mentioned, and I did not know whether it was for a reason or not, Berlin and Moscow. I wondered how international in scope the Peace Mission was.
Mr. Wilson: It is completely international.
Lady: Do you have groups there in Moscow and other places?
Mr. Wilson: Not from that organizational standpoint, because we do not stress the organization. We have no membership rolls at all because to us it is completely spiritual and we cannot measure spirituality, and it's impersonal. We have only membership from the standpoint of our trustees of our churches, and owners of property in the ownership laws of the country. But we have actual Peace Mission ownership where the Banquet Table is served in most of the countries of Europe, and Followers we keep no record but no doubt behind the Iron Curtain as well as in Burma and India and all over.
Rev. Cherry: Well, I find the time is running out. Do you have a question, anybody? Yes, indeed, Mr. M.
Gentleman: Why, any of the men that are working for Father Divine, do they receive wages?
Mr. Wilson: No one works for Father.
Gentleman: Well, what I meant to say, gasoline stations, for example.
Mr. Wilson: No. There are cooperative garages and they work on the same basis as the hotels; in other words, they are owned by Followers cooperatively who have pooled their money and have purchased same.
But all of the Followers who work cooperatively, work not on a salary basis. They give of their service completely and devotedly and, in return, they are provided with whatever they need.
They don't have any want or desire for anything.
Rev. Cherry: I think we're interested a little bit in you, Mr. Wilson. You have obviously a very good command of English and a wide knowledge of all sorts of things, including Methodism. We are happy to be informed about our Methodism as well as about Father Divine tonight. We appreciate this. But, were you at one time a teacher, or are you now a teacher perhaps, or something like this?
Mr. Wilson: Well, again, we do not care to bear record of ourselves particularly. However, I will say that there was a time in the past that I was interested in church history; I was interested in the life of St. Augustine who, incidentally, was a celibate also.
Rev. Cherry: When he got around to it! (Laughter rings out.)
Mr. Wilson: Yes; well, it's true that he lived a very fast life, and lots of times that can be your best and most confirmed celibate! He knew that it cannot last. He knew. And he was one who made himself a celibate for the kingdom of God's sake.
I was interested in church history; I was interested in polemics, and I think one time I had an assignment, a research project, on organized Christianity in the Middle Ages, which, of course, made me quite an admirer of Mr. Wesley because I studied the conditions of the church of his time.
The church had lost its vision, it had lost its dynamic message as far as Mr. Wesley was concerned, and it had lost it from the standpoint of the organization the movement of Christianity a number of times in history. St. Augustine was called upon, and Mr. Luther, as you as Protestants, no doubt, will be a bit receptive of Mr. Luther, if I'm not speaking to a Roman Catholic group; they won't appreciate Mr. Luther too much, I'm sure. And then Mr. Wesley in his time had to do it. He could not keep from doing it! And he did make this statement about his people, as Mr. Wesley was never a Methodist, I don't believe was he?
Rev. Cherry: You mean John?
Mr. Wilson: Yes. He was always a member of the Church of England but as a formal Methodist he was not, was he?
Rev. Cherry: Well, John was more so than Charles. I think Charles was the one who never really voted for the Church.
Mr. Wilson: I see. Well, anyway, Mr. Wesley said: "I have no fear that the people called Methodists will ever cease to exist, either in England nor in America, but I do fear that they may degenerate into a lifeless sect, having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof."
Rev. Cherry: That's right.
Mr. Wilson: And the people called Methodists have a rich spiritual heritage.
Rev. Cherry: Amen!
Mr. Wilson: We have no difficulty unifying ourselves with you because the same Spirit is speaking today; the same Spirit is eternal and universal; and I can see God just as clearly here as I can see It at the Peace Mission!
Rev. Cherry: Now Brother Peaceful Samuel, don't you want to say just a word and perhaps to tell us a little bit about your own experience or somebody else's life that has been transformed, perhaps, by Father Divine? Do you want to tell us about that?
Mr. Samuel: I thank you. As the time is swiftly passing and I am sure you have had quite a lengthy session here this evening and Mr. Wilson has covered so much territory there is little left to be covered but I might say briefly, I, as a sample and as an example of Father Divine's Work and Mission, I am one that was lifted from a level that was, perhaps, as low as a human being could go, and notwithstanding that all of Father Divine's Followers do not come from that level. The Followers of Father Divine come from all walks of life; from all levels. But briefly, to express my own experience, why I have declared Father Divine's Deity, is for what He has done for me individually.
I was addicted to drink to the extent that during Prohibition I would drink rubbing alcohol to get a "charge". That's about one of the worst things that you could ever attempt to swallow. But since becoming a Follower of Father Divine I personally would not give two cents for a shipload of the finest liquors that are made!
Father has not only stopped me as a person but millions have been stopped, since this is not a reformation. Father Divine is not a Reformer, He's a Transformer! And in these bodies there is the Christ, as Father puts it:
'The Christ in you and the Christ in me will make us all what we ought to be.'
Father Divine also says, as He is, so can all of us be. He has come to bring
to us, to humanity, the Consciousness of the Presence of God. His definition
of the Peace Mission Movement is that this Peace Mission Movement is the Spiritual
Mission of Christianity which is going forth to completely revolutionize civilization
and free mankind from the bondage and the consciousness of mortality.
We believe that the Peace Mission Movement as it exists today, that this is the Church of the Firstborn where the spirits of Just men are being made perfect. We believe that we are spirits with bodies and not bodies with spirits! I personally believe that I was with God before the world was and that I have been here on many occasions, and in this incarnation it is possible for me to stay here in this body.
In reference to Father Divine, He came with us tonight; you will find Him inside of us not only on Broad and Catherine Streets but inside of us. That is where Father Divine will be found and that is where He will be understood! Because although Christ in Bethlehem a thousand times be born, it means nothing unless He is born in us! And Father Divine has come for each and every individual, to form a partnership with him, within himself, that he may become per petrified, spiritualized to the extent that these bodies that we now occupy will not have to go through the process of death. Because, He said, had He not come as He did, there would be no f-l-e-s-h saved, and that spells flesh!
And we believe that Father Divine is the second coming of Christ to the Christian world and is the coming of the Meshiach for the Jewish world. We believe that the Peace Mission Movement did not start in 1919 but it started when Abraham begat Isaac and Isaac begat Jacob. That was the beginning of the forty-two generations which Christ fought through before He was born of Mary in Bethlehem.
Father Divine now in the Fathership Degree of spiritual understanding is the Fathership Degree; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in One. And we believe that His Body is death proof and that He has transmitted to us His Mind and Spirit which has revived in us the Christ. And we believe that Christ died once and He does not have to die again, and everyone who brings the Spirit of Christ to fruition within himself will live here on this earth, as Jesus taught us to pray nineteen hundred years ago, not to prepare us to go to Heaven, but He told us to pray:
'Our Father Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come. Let Thy Will be done (here) on earth as it is in Heaven!'
And we believe that we are now citizens of the Utopian Government that will be
established when man realizes his real existence and realizes that he, man, is
one; that we, each and everyone here in this room tonight that believes in the
Bible history of man's creation and man's existence, believe that Noah was the
father of every human being on the face of the earth today, which makes Mr. Wilson
and myself brothers because was Noah was our grandfather! (All join in the merriment.
Incidentally, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Samuel enact the Bill of Rights interracially.)
So we believe, anyway, that man has made the effort to establish the Brotherhood of man but he started backwards. We cannot have a Brotherhood until the Fatherhood is established. And Father Divine has come and established the Fatherhood of God; now it is possible for a Brotherhood. And Mr. Wilson and I are real brothers by the same Mother and the same Father speaking of Father and Mother Divine; Mother Divine being Father Divine's Wife.
Father Divine is married to every individual on the face of the earth who has the same conviction that Mother Divine has "I know that You are God!" Father married this Conviction. Father Divine is my Wife and I am married to Father Divine just as much as Mother Divine is married to Him, because Father's Mind and Spirit is in me. That is what stopped me from drinking, gambling, committing adultery and doing all manner of sin short of murder. His Spirit being incarnated in me has transformed me as a butterfly is transformed from a caterpillar.
When a caterpillar is a worm he eats leaves and crawls on his stomach, but after going through metamorphosis and coming out a beautiful butterfly he doesn't eat leaves anymore; he sips the nectar from the flowers. He has a different nature, a different disposition. So do we when we are transformed by the Spirit of God Almighty, Father Divine. We don't do the things that we used to do! And if we don't recognize the Spirit of God in us in this incarnation, we might, perhaps, have an opportunity to recognize it in another body. But we do have the opportunity now for these bodies to become perpetrified and the material part of our bodies spiritualized to the extent that, Father says, is like soda in a biscuit. You can't get the soda without getting the biscuit! Enoch did it walked with God until he was no more.
The seed idea of the Christ was planted in the soil of the souls of the children of men nineteen hundred years ago when He came as Sower. The seeds were sown. And that's why Father Divine's Followers come from all walks of life, from all parts of the world, from every level; because the seed idea was sown by Jesus Christ Who was Father Divine in the Sonship Degree, He was then the Sower. He has come now in the Fathership Degree and He is reaping what He sowed nineteen hundred years ago!
Well, since the time will not permit; I think you have heard enough tonight. At this time I would like to take the opportunity to invite each and every one of you, with our beloved Pastor here; we do appreciate and thank you for the wonderful interest that you have shown and the cordial way that we have been received; we invite you to come down to attend any of our meetings. We are interracial, interdenominational, non-sectarian. We don't care what your affiliations are. And I will say this: No one on the face of earth has ever become a Follower of Father Divine by hearing somebody preach. This is not something that you join, this is something you become! This Truth is better revealed than told.
Father Divine speaks the language of the soul; He speaks the language of Love, and unless Father Divine reveals to you Who He is, you will never know by anybody telling you!
So we appreciate this opportunity and would like to have the opportunity to come again; and again we'll say, we would like to have each and all of you to come down. We have a group down there this evening, something similar to this group, that is being entertained at Broad and Catherine at our Banquet Table. We invite you to come down at any time and partake of the material food which, to us, is Holy Communion.
We serve our Holy Communion by serving practical, material food; because Jesus said nineteen hundred years ago when He served the Last Supper, before His betrayal, He said: "The one that shall betray Me tonight will sop in the dish with Me." So we believe that where is sopping going on there must be some real eating! (Laughter rings out.)
So we invite you all to come down and dine!
Rev. Cherry: I want to thank you gentlemen on behalf of the whole group here tonight who have very deeply appreciated not only your presentations of these matters but the fine spirit that you have shown, and may we say to you. Peace?
Mr. Wilson and Mr. Samuel: Peace.
Rev. Cherry: And thank you, very much, for coming. And oh, I want to say this in your presence: We have here not too many of these papers which are very informative and record the Christmas articles of Father Divine. If you take one to a family, as long as they will last, maybe that will do. I am taking one here to be in the Church in case anybody wants to see it. Thank you.
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