As the Secretary ushered Mr. Bullock into FATHER'S Study, she said, "FATHER this is Mr. Bullock," after which the Interview began with FATHER speaking as follows:
FATHER and MOTHER DIVINE
at the Circle Mission Church, Philadelphia
FATHER: Peace. Take a seat. Is that your correct name, Mr. Bullock?
Mr. Bullock: Yes.
FATHER: Where do you live?
Mr. Bullock: At the present I am staying at the Lorraine Hotel.
FATHER: I see.
Mr. Bullock: My home is New York City — Brooklyn, New York
FATHER: Are you married?
Mr. Bullock: Yes, FATHER — separated.
FATHER: You and your wife are separated. Do you have any children?
Mr. Bullock: Yes, Sir; two.
FATHER: Two. About how old are you, Mr. Bullock?
Mr. Bullock: Twenty-seven.
FATHER: Twenty-seven. Was it something you wanted to tell ME? Someone said you wanted to see ME.
Mr. Bullock: Yes, FATHER. I haven't had the courage of my conviction or else I would have been here a long time ago as YOU already know, as Miss J. K. P. said she spoke to YOU about me.
FATHER: Yes.
Mr. Bullock: And as you already know, I have gotten myself involved in some trouble in New York.
FATHER: In New York.
Mr. Bullock: Yes, some serious trouble.
FATHER: In New York City?
Mr. Bullock: In Brooklyn, New York.
FATHER: Where do you live?
Mr. Bullock: Myrtle Avenue, Brooklyn, with my brother.
FATHER: Is he married too?
Mr. Bullock: No.
FATHER: He is not married. He is older than you?
Mr. Bullock: Yes, FATHER, eleven months older. As I was saying, I was involved in some serious trouble. I was involved in a stick-up and shooting.
FATHER: I see. Someone got killed?
Mr. Bullock: No, a policeman was shot. There were three of us. The other fellows got caught and I got away. At the time it happened, they picked me up and I lied myself out of it. I told them I wasn't involved and they did not have any proof, so they took me down and questioned me and they let me go the following morning. Eventually they found out I was involved and they came looking for me.
FATHER: Did you have a gun at the time?
Mr. Bullock: No, I didn't have a gun, but one of the other fellows had a gun.
FATHER: Were you all from Brooklyn?
Mr. Bullock: Yes.
FATHER: Miss J. K. P. told ME. Of course I have never met you, not that I bear record of. Of course, many times people see ME and I don't bear record of them, but she told ME that she told you to come to ME and confess your sins and then go and give yourself up.
Mr. Bullock: Yes she did. I have been so confused, FATHER, I am afraid I was scared what would happen. YOU once told me FATHER, a long time ago when I was small — we were in the Mission and then we went out, the so-called family, Miss P. and my so-called dad; that was back in '31 or '36. I came to YOU at the time we were having a Banquet at Greenkill Park and YOU told me to have faith. I didn't have faith then FATHER and I don't seem to have it now. If I would have had faith, I believe, I would have been able to come to YOU and talk to you and I wouldn't have been confused like I am now and I would have gone back and given myself up.
FATHER: That's wonderful. It is not so far away after all; I mean not so strange after all.
Mr. Bullock: I must have been about eight or maybe no more than six or seven at the most.
FATHER: I see. Was this a store or what?
Mr. Bullock: No, it was a taxicab that we stuck up. A taxicab, and in getting away we tried to commandeer a car and it so happened the owner of the car was a policeman and the fellow that had the gun he went over to the car first and after the policeman pulled the gun, I didn't actually see the shooting. I was in the rear. There were three of us. I was in the rear and I heard someone say , "He has a gun", and we started running. I was also shot, FATHER, right here in the back of the arm, in the shoulder, but it was only a superficial wound. they did not find the slug and I do thank YOU for that.
FATHER: You didn't have to go to the hospital?
Mr. Bullock: I went and the doctor told me it was alright, One of the other fellows was shot too and he was seriously wounded.
FATHER: Were they all dark complected?
Mr. Bullock: Yes.
FATHER: Did you all have guns when you went in?
Mr. Bullock: One of the fellows had a gun.
FATHER: Just one. And you all were depending on that one fellow's gun?
Mr. Bullock: Yes.
FATHER: Were you ever out to sayville when you were very small?
Mr. Bullock: I don't recall whether I was or not.
FATHER: I just questioned — I know it was a name on record out there, I mean as a visitor — no crime or nothing wrong in that case — was out there.
Mr. Bullock: No, I was never out there as far as I can remember, unless it was when I was very small.
FATHER: yes, you would have been very small, because that would have been in the '20's, back in the early '20's I believe. Some people used to come out there; so many people came out, but the name is very familiar; but I never bore record of Miss K. P. until here recently.
(At this point one of the two recording Secretaries questioned what the other boys involved got in the way of a sentence, after which Mr. Bullock replied as follows.)
Mr. Bullock: It happened on the 19th or 20th of May and I imagine they are probably awaiting trial. It will probably be seven or eight months before they go to trial.
FATHER: No doubt. Also by they not having you, maybe they would want to hold you as a material witness or something of that sort.
Secretary: FATHER, I would like to bear record, does he have any other record?
FATHER: Have you ever been arrested before?
Mr. Bullock: Yes, once before.
FATHER: What was the charge?
Mr. Bullock: The charge was forgery.
FATHER: Did you get time for that?
Mr. Bullock: Yes.
FATHER: How much?
Mr. Bullock: Eighteen months.
FATHER: When was that?
Mr. Bullock: That was in '53. I got out in '54.
FATHER: Got out in August 54. Did you go to Kingston to live?
Mr. Bullock: No, not since I have been home I haven't been to Kingston, I went up to visit , since I have been home. I got out in the last part of August: I have been to Kingston to visit, but I haven't lived up there in Kingston prior to my getting in trouble; the last time I was up in Kingston about eight months.
FATHER: How happened you didn't write to ME?
Mr. Bullock: Why I didn't write to YOU? I don't know FATHER, how to explain that. I guess I felt I wasn't worthy. When I would get in trouble I would think of YOU. Then when things were running smooth I would never think to seek YOU out.
FATHER: Was that other time — was that the only time you were arrested?
Mr. Bullock: When I was a teenager I was arrested. Then I was on probation. I was arrested when I was a teenager. I got in trouble when I was about sixteen; I was involved in some stolen goods and I got arrested but I didn't have to do any time, but I got probation because I was a minor.
FATHER: I see. where does your father live?
Mr. Bullock: Well, he has passed away.
FATHER: Oh, he passed.
Mr. Bullock: He passed away in 1948.
FATHER: Well, what do you intend to do now, Mr. Bullock?
Mr. Bullock: I don't know, FATHER. I don't know what to do. Before I came here tonight I was thinking about moving on the end of the week. Before I came here tonight — before YOU called for me I was thinking about moving on the end of the week and now I just don't know.
FATHER: How did you come to the city?
Mr. Bullock: Well, FATHER, I had about ten dollars in my pocket and I didn't know where I was going. I just came to Philadelphia, caught a bus and came to Philadelphia. I just came here on impulse. I had about ten dollars in my pocket at the time, I didn't know where I was going but I knew I was going to leave New York City. I just came to Philadelphia on impulse.
FATHER: How did you come?
Mr. Bullock: By bus.
FATHER: Are you working?
Mr. Bullock: Yes, FATHER. I am working with one of the brothers, Mr. D. H. P., doing some painting for him.
FATHER: I see. What do they pay you?
Mr. Bullock: Well, he started me at seven dollars a day — thirty-five dollars a week.
FATHER: It would be better for you to do as your mother said.
Mr. Bullock: To go back and give myself up?
FATHER: Yes.
It would make it more easy for you, because wheresoever you go otherwise, then you are still being under the penalty as a fugitive from justice, they will try to get you and they would no doubt eventually get you. So it would be better for you to go and give yourself up or call and give yourself up or call the authorities and give yourself up.
Mr. Bullock: Call them in New York or the Brooklyn authorities?
FATHER: Yes. They would send for you no doubt, and then no doubt bail could be fixed, for they wouldn't keep you with no gun on you would they and you didn't do any shooting?
Mr. Bullock: No.
FATHER: You were just implicated in it. You were with those who did. And if you do, of course I will be with you and you will come out all right. What did you start to say? (FATHER questions on of the Secretaries who started to speak at the same time HE did.)
Secretary: I started to say, you didn't plan it did you? I mean were you in on the planning of it?
Mr. Bullock: I was involved right from the beginning.
FATHER: You were involved in it from the beginning? Well, you planed the hold-up, as she said.
Mr. Bullock: Well, I'll put it this way, the three of us we planned it together — the three of us.
FATHER: Well, it would seem strange you going into it without a gun and one man had a gun.
Mr. Bullock:Well, we were depending on the gun he had. It was just one gun between the three of us. We were depending on the one he had although we had no intention of using it. At least, I didn't think we would have any use for it any more than scaring the party involved.
FATHER: How much did you get
Mr. Bullock: I think they said they got twenty-seven dollars.
FATHER: You don't know how much it was? That is a shame to get in so much trouble for so little. You are wrong anyway; but I mean even if you would have gotten a good sum it would have looked more like it. But crime does not pay in any way whatsoever. It would be more advantageous; and the only hope of gaining your complete freedom, would be to give yourself up as you got in it this time, then never compromise with any such an act of dishonesty again. When you are legally free, you would feel better even if you were in prison for a while. But it would really be better to turn yourself in and not let someone else turn you in. For it would be as though you were still trying to get away at the same thing and the authorities would be afraid you would attempt the same again.
(At this time one of the Secretaries suggested it might be to Mr. Bullocks advantage if the Philadelphia authorities be called from FATHER'S Office, inasmuch as they appreciate FATHER'S cooperation in ridding the city of vice and crime, after which FATHER spoke as follows:)
FATHER: Did you ever sell any dope?
Mr. Bullock: No, but I have used it, FATHER.
FATHER: You have used it. Were either of you using it the night it happened? That was in the night, wasn't it?
Mr. Bullock: No, at the time nobody had it.
FATHER: You were not under the influence of dope, neither under the influence of liqueur. Well, if you want to do — if you didn't want to call yourself, as the Secretary said, MY Office could call and no doubt it would make it much better for you, because if they knew you came here to ME and you made up your mind to go straight from now on, it may make it better for you. Even if a person does wrong and confesses their sins and forsakes them, GOD is faithful and just to forgive you for your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness and if you have confessed what you have done in all sincerity and do not mean to go back into those things again or will not indulge in anything of that type again, you are forgiven for your sins if you only confess as you have confessed it and now forsaken it and tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth, I will help you.
When you are sworn in it is the quotation, "Will you tell the truth and nothing else but the truth, so help you GOD?" And I say, if you have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth, I will help you and you are forgiven according to you consecration, self denial and sacrifice.
I AM quite sure you have heard of many different ones that have committed crimes years and years ago when they came to ME, I told them to go back and confess your sins. One fellow of a dark complexion came to ME — it was around 1931, I believe it was, and told ME about he killing a man in the south, of a light complexion, for a quart of liqueur. and that was seventeen years after he did it and I told him to go and confess his sins. Back to Alabama he went as quick as he could get there and went to the high sheriff and told him he was now a follower of Mine — of FATHER DIVINE'S; and they had been looking for him for the crime he had committed seventeen years before then and this was a man of light complexion. He said this man took a quart of liqueur. or something of that sort and he got a double-barrel shot gun and shot him in his chest just below his heart, killing him instantaneously. And he went back and confessed his sins.
The man had confessed to ME how he got away from down there. The Sheriff told Him, "If FATHER DIVINE has done that much for you, now you go back and live with HIM forever", or words to that effect. See, they didn't do a thing to him. They all thought sure he would have been lynched; not only to be arrested but would have been lynched; but MY Spirit and MY Presence carried him safely back to make the confession in the fulfillment of the scripture, "He that confesses his sins and forsaketh them shall have mercy." GOD is faithful and just to forgive you for your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness.
As in his experience, it was as was said, has been said on many occasions about the different ones being on the brink of everlasting woe, for he did not — now your charge, what you have told ME you did, if it is true, and all you have told ME you did before and paid for it, would not be compared with that of the man's experience. For he said they had the mob out after him and he tried to get away one time. One time he was almost trampled down by the horses when they were looking for him and he dodged and he got away and after many years he came up here to New York and saw ME and he got MY Blessing. Now they didn't do a thing to him. And his experience, as I afore said, was worse, so many times worse than what little charge that is against you. It would be very little anyway; but to clear yourself with the law and go in peace and sin no more, a worse thing will not come upon you.
So , if you take these thoughts to consideration, I will be with you and you will not have to pay even the physical penalty you would have had to pay, for they will forgive you.
Mr. Bullock: Thank YOU, FATHER.
FATHER: If GOD forgives you, who can hold anything against you? That is why I wanted to get you before you got away from under MY influence and jurisdiction. I have often said, when a person confesses and forsakes his sins and GOD has forgiven him, the very gates of the "other place" cannot prevail against you, for you have been supremely emancipated and forgiven for the sins committed and are no longer under that penalty. But you would have a right to go to them or call them, get in contact with the authorities in some way, to show that you have been forgiven and if you will never do such a thing again or any such crime or sin again, I can be with you and give you the victory now henceforth and forever. I thank you.
Mr. Bullock: Thank YOU, FATHER. As the Secretary suggested, would it be alright to have YOUR Office call?
FATHER: Yes, I could. I would be glad to call from MY Office. Then they will know you are under MY influence. So, if you will accept of that, we will be glad to do it and I AM sure you will not be sorry, if you confess and forsake once and forever. No doubt, they will keep you as is their duty to do to ascertain if you are the one and if you have committed any other crime. I will be with you all the way along.
FATHER and MOTHER DIVINE in the Office
at the Circle Mission Church, Philadelphia
(With these last assuring words from FATHER, Mr Bullock left FATHER'S Office as FATHER told him he might go downstairs and wait, after which FATHER had one of HIS Secretaries make the call to the Department of Police to report to them and ask that they have someone pick the boy up. FATHER then went across to HIS Private Office where several of the other Secretaries were present and within a few minutes three officers arrived and were escorted to FATHER'S Office, FATHER greeted them and asked them to have seats, which they did. FATHER speaks as follows:)
FATHER: This is a man that was supposed, with some more fellows, committed a crime in Brooklyn, New York and he got away. He saw someone and they told him to come to ME and confess and then go back and give himself up. That was before he left New York State; but he didn't do i . . .
Officer: Came all the way from New York over here.
FATHER: That's right. So I heard he was in the city and I called up and told him to come down here. So he agreed to come and confess and so he did. Then I decided it would be no better time than now to take care of it. So he was willing to come and confess his sins and forsake them. As I said, GOD is faithful and just to forgive you for your sins if you will confess and forsake them.
Officer: YOU are doing a Wonderful Work FATHER.
FATHER: I thank you. So he said he would be willing to give up. I told him he should do it; he should call up the authorities in Brooklyn or here and let them know he is available. So he agreed if I called them from this office here, it would be alright if I called the Commissioner's Office, but his office was not opened at the time and I wanted to do it right here and now before it further goes.
Officer: We just made a raid and brought a gang in. We took that game over down here on South Broad. So as the office took the message, as we passed, we came in.
(At this time FATHER questioned one of the Secretaries where Mr. Bullock was, to which she responded he was having a cup of coffee in the Dining Room downstairs, after which FATHER spoke as follows:)
FATHER: Maybe the officers would like to have a cup of coffee.
(All agreed they would enjoy a cup of coffee and subsequently were served. During the casual conversation which ensued while all were having their coffee, one of the officers spoke as follows:)
Officer: Do you ever hear anything from Captain Brown lately?
FATHER: I do not hear so much from him.
Secretary: I heard just about three or four weeks ago that I think he had an accident
Officer: Oh, yes, he was in the hospital. He was going home from work one morning and he must have lost control and he ran into a concrete wall near the cemetery and fractured several ribs. I went to see him in Philadelphia General. (addressing the other officers) He was a pretty good friend of FATHER'S
One of the Officers: We worked together.
FATHER: One day in one of our Churches in New York City they sold ninety-four thousand dollars worth of bonds when he was cooperating, because he went down there once or twice.
Officer: Well, I think YOU broke the record here in Philadelphia during the bond drive when we had a drive in the district.
FATHER: I don't recall how many were sold here, I know there were lots of them but they said there were ninety-four thousand dollars worth there and all of the bonds were willed to the government. It is Wonderful!
Officer: We used to come in here and used to go in the side entrance and get lunch.
Miss Bloom: They are open all night down there.
Officer: We were always welcome.
Miss Bloom: That is one thing, FATHER believes in feeding the people
FATHER: The Good Book says, "It is more blessed to give than to receive," but some people think it is more blessed to get than to give.
Officer: Yes, YOU are doing a Wonderful job.
FATHER: They tell ME you have been cleaning up South Philadelphia.
Officer: That is one thing; it is the toughest job, but we are doing our best.
FATHER: So glad!
Officer: We just had a woman stabbed over here on Bainbridge Street yesterday morning— twenty-seven years. She was stabbed, it was around seven o'clock in the morning.
(At this time one of the officers made mention that he at one time had a lunch stand on this corner which was later removed across the street, after which FATHER spoke as follows:)
FATHER: Oh, yes. We have been here thirteen years this year.
Officer:That's right. Well I have been here eighteen. (Referring to the boy, he then says) Is he a young fellow a young chap?
FATHER: Twenty seven. (At this point FATHER told one of the Secretaries to have Mr. Bullock brought to the Office and as he entered, he said "Peace", after which FATHER spoke as follows:)
FATHER: Peace! Take a seat, Mr. Bullock. Had you gotten any sleep tonight?
Mr. Bullock: I slept before I was called.
FATHER: Yes.
(One of the officers at this time took a chair next to Mr. Bullock and proceeded to question him. However , as the boy was replying so softly, one of the other officers suggested that he bring his voice up more so it could be heard and the officer sitting next to him, then spoke on thuswise:)
Officer: I asked him what he wanted to tell us and he said he wanted to tell us he was involved in a stickup involving a shooting and I asked him who got shot and he said a policeman got shot. Would you tell me your name?
Mr. Bullock: Joseph Bullock
Officer: And your address
Mr. Bullock: Myrtle Avenue, Brooklyn, New York.
Officer: Your age?
Mr. Bullock: Twenty-seven years old. It was around about the 19th or 20th of May, 1955.
Officer: The 19th or 20th of May, 1955.
Mr. Bullock: Yes.
Officer: Where did it happen?
Mr. Bullock: Brooklyn
Officer: Do you recall the address?
Mr. Bullock: Halsey Street, between Reed and Stuyvesant.
Officer: And you say a policeman got shot.
Mr. Bullock: He wa shot. We were getting away from the stick-up.
Officer: You were leaving the scene of the old-up.
Mr. Bullock: We were leaving the scene of the crime and we were trying to commandeer a car and the owner of the car happened to be an off-duty policeman and he was shot.
Officer: You tried to get in his car.
Mr. Bullock: I didn't do it.
Officer: You didn't do the shooting.
Another Officer: Let me ask you. Was the police officer in uniform?
Mr. Bullock: No, he was off duty.
Officer: Was that a private residence you stuck up?
Mr. Bullock: No, it was a taxicab.
Officer: do you recall how much money was got off of him?
Mr. Bullock: I think it was about twenty-seven dollars; I am not sure. At the time it happened the policeman that was shot got out of his car and I was shot and another fellow was shot.
Officer: You were shot? Where were you treated?
Mr. Bullock: I was treated at the hospital. When I was shot I climbed up under a car and eventually they found me. The officers found me and took me to the police headquarters and I lied and they finally let me go. Two of us were shot and I was shot superficially and I needed treatment.
Officer: Oh, I see, you were treated for shock. That's about all. How long have you been in Philadelphia?
Mr. Bullock: About three weeks.
Officer: Three weeks and you were roaming around New York all of that time before you came to Philadelphia?
Mr. Bullock: Yes, about four days after it happened.
Officer: Well, did you want to get in touch with FATHER DIVINE before you came to Philadelphia to give yourself up?
Mr. Bullock: I hadn't thought of it then. At the time I was so confused. Well, I feel the Spirit brought me here because I didn't know I was coming. I had no intention of coming.
Officer" Okay, that is about all, FATHER. Is there anything YOU would like to ask him in our presence, FATHER? Anything YOU would like to know?
FATHER: Well, I would like to bear record what would be your procedure now, from now on?
Officer: We will take him into the Seventeenth District at Seventeenth and Federal Streets and they will get in touch with the authorities and they will find out what this man is charged with. YOU see, FATHER, we will tell the detectives and he will repeat his story and he will be forwarded to New York authorities and when the case comes up, whether they are going to call one of our officers, I don't know. No doubt YOU will be notified thanking YOU for doing such a wonderful job.
FATHER: (addressing Mr. Bullock): You feel better now don't you?
Mr. Bullock: Yes, FATHER.
Officer: He will be better off.
Another Officer: You are better off getting it off your mind. We Will take this gentleman with us. FATHER, thank YOU very much.
(After shaking hands with FATHER the officers and Mr. Bullock left the Office. However, as the various Secretaries were speaking of the boy and how FATHER'S Spirit had caused him to confess his sins and how he in turn seemed happy and relieved after doing so, in verification of the Scripture that whosoever confesses and forsakes his sins shall have mercy, FATHER spoke on thuswise:)
FATHER: You see, from this department they will extend clemency and from the department in New York it will be the same. What did I say nineteen hundred years ago? "Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but that the Glory of GOD be made manifest." You see, he had to come right here and get this work renewed. You all know it is just like that little electric rod they touch
(FATHER refers to a story about an electric rod, that with the slightest touch, it is said that it dispels the nature and characteristics of the most vile person known and causes them to be passive; which could be likened to the Holy Spirit. For when HIS Spirit, the HOLY GHOST, touches and overshadows you, just that Holy Touch, It penetrates and permeates your very being and you automatically become subservient to It and in turn, It automatically controls you and harnesses your mentality and your energy and converts it into the positive direction, and there and then it is no longer you, but the CHRIST that dwells within.)
***************