FATHER and MOTHER, Sayville, L.I.,N.Y.
Many will be awakened and enlightened by this lengthy interview granted to a Holiness Bishop and his wife who were seeking the truth concerning this One of Whom they had heard so much, for both young and old converts will find new mysteries revealed as only the Savior HIMSELF can reveal.
Immaculate King, we thank THEE!
(The foregoing statement is that of the transcriber, and the interview follows:)
Secretary: This is Bishop S. and Mrs. S., FATHER.
Bishop and Mrs. S.: Peace, FATHER!
FATHER: Peace! Take seats.
Bishop S.: FATHER, we just came in from Tampa, Florida, and I heard much of YOU from some of my great friends. Some of my friends know YOU and belong to Your Kingdom, and some of them are here. I wanted to meet YOU.
FATHER: I see. I AM pleased to meet you.
Bishop S.: In fact I am very much interested in YOU. I am a bishop of the Holiness Church.
FATHER: You are?
Bishop S.: Yes, and I am very much interested to meet YOU. I want some information because I am very much interested in YOU.
FATHER: What church is this you represent?
Bishop S.: Holiness Church -- Church of GOD in Christ.
FATHER: Oh yes, Church of GOD in Christ.
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: I know of the Church of GOD in Christ.
Bishop S.: Yes, one Church of GOD in Christ under Bishop Mason . . .
FATHER: Yes, that's right.
Bishop S.: This is a branch for him.
FATHER: Oh yes. Well, where are you located, Mr. S.?
Bishop S.: I live in Tampa, Florida, but I'm stopping down here now at 19 E. 134th Street, between Madison and Fifth Avenue.
FATHER: Do you expect to be in the City long?
Bishop S.: Well, something about two weeks, something like that -- maybe three.
FATHER: Are you holding a revival or something of that sort?
Bishop S.: No, I'm not holding a revival now. I just came up mostly to see YOU.
FATHER: I see.
Bishop S.: In fact I wanted to get some information from YOU, to know myself, you know. When a man is interested in something, he wants to know for himself . . .
FATHER: What is it you would like to know?
Bishop S.: Well, the most outstanding point, the principal point I wanted to know about YOU being GOD, how YOU became to be GOD. I was very much interested in it. I just wanted to know the reality of it.
FATHER: I see. Well, there are quite a lot of people, no doubt, would be interested and yet unless they have the Holy Spirit, they would not know whether they are a child of GOD or not, much less than knowing GOD. The Bible says -- I speak in your own language now since you are an elder of the church -- the Bible says:
'He that lacketh in wisdom let him ask of God who giveth liberally and upbraideth not . . .'
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . and it also says:
'No man knoweth the Father but the Son . . .'
Bishop S.: That's right.
FATHER:
'. . . and no man knoweth the Son but the Father, saving him to whom the Son will reveal Him.'
I have often said to both critics, friends and coworkers:
'No man knoweth the things of GOD saving by the Spirit of GOD; no man knoweth the things of man saving by the spirit of man . . .'
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . therefore, if a person desires to get first-hand information, through harmonization, by the contact you make with that with which you are harmonizing, the transmission of the Spirit will bear witness, for it is written:
'His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.'
So the witness must be there before one can actually know for himself. A person
may say many things and yet they cannot know saving by the Spirit of Truth.
Bishop S.: Well, what is Your principle doctrine?
FATHER: Did you ever read The New Day?
Bishop S.: No, I never have.
FATHER: No? I think it would tell you practically My Doctrine.
Bishop S.: Well, are YOU GOD, or sent from GOD?
FATHER: That is a question that you would ask a person concerning things that pertain to this life . . .
Bishop S.: Yes -- yes.
FATHER: Of course, I go by what you tell me or have told me . . .
Bishop S.: Yes, that's right.
FATHER: You just told ME you were a minister of the gospel, or representative bishop, whichever, of the Church . . .
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . of the Holiness Church, and naturally if you tell ME you are, I go by what you tell ME.
Bishop S.: Yes -- yes.
FATHER: But I do not bear record of Myself as a Person, as I told a bishop many years ago. If you are from the South, no doubt you may have heard of him when you were a boy -- Bishop Stafford.
Bishop S.: Yes, I know him, I know him.
FATHER: When I went South he wanted to know of ME many things concerning Myself as a Person, and that is the way it was years ago -- at least, no doubt, thirty years or more, and I told him somewhat like I AM about to tell you. As Jesus said concerning Himself as a Person, which was Christ in the Sonship Degree:
'I bear not record of myself; there is one Who is greater than I bears record of me.'
So if I bear record of Myself as a Person, My record may not be true to those
who observe it not to be true. But if I let the Spirit itself bear record of
ME, why then, the record must be true. So that is the thought. It is written:
'It is better revealed than told.'
Bishop S.: Well now, reading the Bible, the woman of Samaria went to the well
to draw water. After being there talking with Jesus, He asked her for a drink
of water, why, yet she didn't know Who He was. But Jesus said to her,
'If thou knewest who I am,'
she would give Him to drink.
'If you would ask me for a drink, I would give you a drink of living water.'
So finally to come to a conclusion, she found out Who He was after He told her
that He was the Son of GOD. So that is the same meaning that I am trying to get
hold of, so I will know just what I want to know, because I am interested, you
see.
FATHER: Well, if you are interested,
'He that lacketh knowledge, let him ask of God,'
and that does not mean anybody, to ask any and everybody whom they may call or
you may call or someone else may call GOD, but ask of GOD according to your own
religious conviction. Ask of GOD -- the GOD you know about. You do not know ME!
That is why you are asking ME, because you do not know ME; but it is just a little
mistake in asking ME Personally, for if you ask ME in your heart and in your
mind but not direct your thoughts to ME as a Person; direct your thoughts to
GOD from your angle of expression according to your religious conviction, and
whatsoever the GOD according to your religious conviction will tell you, believe
it! - - if you are conscientious, sincere and true. But, of course, many times
preconceived ideas and opinions pervert the minds of the children of men and
prohibit them from observing or getting a direct answer from the unadulterated
Spirit. You see the mystery?
But I do not desire you to be misled; therefore, I directed you -- every man and every woman -- to their own GOD, according to their own religious conviction, and if they are conscientious and sincere and true, I AM sure that the GOD of their salvation will tell them the truth and will tell them what to do.
Bishop S.: In other words, if I believe within my heart that YOU are GOD, to me YOU are GOD?
FATHER: You do not have to believe that; that is not that. If there is a GOD -- do you believe there is a GOD?
Bishop S.: Yes, I believe there is a GOD, yes.
FATHER: Well, there are millions of people who have GOD and try to define GOD in various ways . . .
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . but according to each one's own individual religious conviction, that person should pray to his GOD as did the prophets in the days of old. Let every man call on his GOD.
Bishop S.: On his GOD.
FATHER: Yes, which means the same, if all of them have the same one. I AM not saying it is a different one, but if it is the true and living GOD, well now, according to your religious conviction you call on your GOD with all sincerity and ask HIM anything you want to know about ME, and whatsoever HE tells you, believe it!
Bishop S.: Well, give me the significance of this: now YOU -- in other words, I call my GOD that I have faith in, and whatsoever that HE tells me about YOU, believe that. Now I want to say this: some tell me YOU are GOD; some say YOU said that YOU are sent from GOD. Well, the main thing I would like to know for myself, see? This is what I want to know: what do YOU say YOU are? Are YOU sent from GOD, or are YOU GOD?
FATHER: Well, that -- pardon ME for interrupting, and yet there is not an apology to be made for what I AM about to say -- now, that is none of your business what I might say I AM, but it is your business if you are sincere, if you desire to know for yourself; if it would be in a sense of your religious conviction that you would desire to know for your own soul's salvation, to know the fact so you would not misrepresent or would not tell a lie on ME or would not say I AM not GOD or say I AM GOD if I AM not GOD, or would not say I AM not GOD if I AM GOD.
Bishop S.: That's what I'm getting at.
FATHER: Now, if you are sincere, if that would be your business; but it would not be your business as to what I might say, because thousands of impostors in your own church say they are ministers of the gospel . . .
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . say they are sanctified holy and filled with the Holy Ghost, and many of them are not filled with it.
Bishop S.: Yes. Well, that is true.
FATHER: So you cannot go by what a man says; so you must know for yourself by going by what GOD says.
Bishop S.: Yes, that's what I am trying to get at.
FATHER: Well now, you ask GOD your own self; let every man ask his GOD, according to the way he sees his GOD. You see the mystery? That is what I AM speaking about, and if you want to know definitely and are conscientious, if you are not an impostor or traitor or critic . . .
Bishop S.: No, I am not a critic.
FATHER: . . . why, you are welcome to ask your GOD, and if you ask your GOD according to your own religious conviction; if you are true, if you are worthy to be a bishop of the church, one with GOD in Spirit and in Mind, GOD will really tell you anything that is necessary for you to know. And I may not speak in My language to you, as in the days of old and even in modern times GOD may speak in the Hebrew tongue to some who understand that language, you see.
Bishop S.: Yes -- yes. I understand.
FATHER: Well now, to you, GOD will speak to you in your own religious conviction, in your own spiritual, or. I might say, your own spiritual language wherewith you are born. That is the way you can get the direction: hence, you will not have an occasion to stumble.
Bishop S.: Uh-huh.
FATHER: I AM not trying to condemn you for asking the question, but I want to put you on the right track so you will not have an occasion to stumble by asking ME or asking any other person, even though I be GOD, if I be GOD; or if I AM not GOD, you see, asking ME would not convince you unless you get it within. You see, it is the same as getting converted; but if you are conscientious and sincere you ask your GOD according to your own religious conviction, and I AM sure the office you hold as the bishop of the church, you should be able to get a direct answer speedily, for GOD hears prayers. Though it may not be in My language, it would be in yours.
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: I mean, it may not be in My spiritual or professional language, but it would be in your spiritual or professional language.
Bishop S.: I understand.
FATHER: Therefore, according to your spiritual language and the mental and spiritual birth wherewith you have been born, according to your statement, I know how GOD would answer you, by the Spirit.
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: You see, according to your statement, if you are the bishop of the Church of GOD in Christ, Holiness Church of GOD in Christ, I AM sure GOD would answer you by the Spirit and it would be by the awakened Spirit, as being termed quickened Spirit from the within that maybe would speak in tongues and tell you. You see, that is the way the Holy Ghost would tell you from your family, your spiritual family wherein you represent yourself to have been born; and if you ask your GOD and if you are sincere, I will declare to you GOD will hear your prayers and answer them and then I could not tell anything else; I could not tell anything different!
I have thousands of people tell ME and tell the people, if I was to say I AM not GOD, they would not believe it. They say that they know I AM. Well, now they say GOD told them within and what has been revealed within, no man can take it away from them, they say. They say if I MYSELF were to tell them I AM not GOD, or matters not what I do or say, they would know I AM GOD just the same, and they say I no doubt would be just trying to test them out to see did they have substantiated faith and actually know ME as I AM.
Well, the same would be with you, whether it is true or false. If you are sincere and if you are a real bishop of the church, the Holiness Church of GOD in Christ, the Holy Ghost in you must be and the Holy Ghost in you will tell you definitely, emphatically and you will know positively whether it is false or true, what you have heard concerning ME; and I would not have to tell you, and if anyone tells you either way, you will be able to stand firm and be substantiated in what the Holy Ghost has told you. You will not need to allow anyone to tell you different.
Bishop S.: Well -- pardon me -- there are two questions now I would like to ask . . .
FATHER: It is wonderful! Whether I AM or am not, I will put you on the line and check on you and make you get close to your GOD. It is wonderful!
Bishop S.: Now -- I believe in YOU, that YOU are GOD, then that same Spirit will come to me through reveal-ation, is that right?
FATHER: You do not have to believe in ME, it is immaterial to ME. I say, you believe in your own GOD. You believe in GOD. If there is a GOD in your consideration, well now, you pray to HIM.
Bishop S.: Yes. I mean . . .
FATHER: You do not have to say anything to ME -- I may be the "other fellow", all you know -- but if you pray to GOD in all sincerity, HE will tell you Who I AM if you are to know it; and if HE tells you I AM the "other fellow" -- really some have said, some preachers have said I AM the "other fellow" -- sure, but it does not do them very much good to say it, though -- but maybe they are not going by the Holy Ghost; maybe the Holy Ghost did not tell them that; maybe it is some preconceived ideas and prejudices and bigotry that the bigoted minds have impregnated their minds with some kind of thought against ME, you know; and they may say, "HE is the 'other fellow.'" I use the words "other fellow" instead of using the word, the d . v . l.
Bishop S.: Well, I feel that YOU should even know the interpretation of man's heart, of what is in him -- even say me -- YOU should know and see what is in me now.
FATHER: Well, if I AM Who they say I AM, I would. If I AM Who millions say I AM, I would know your thoughts before you speak them, or if I AM, I do know your thoughts before you speak them. If I AM not, I do not or would not know.
Bishop S.: May I ask YOU one question on that?
FATHER: You see,
'I set before you an open door.'
I AM not trying to -- it is wonderful!
Bishop S.: Now -- well, do YOU . . .
FATHER: Do I what?
Bishop S.: . . . know what is in me? -- my intention, my mind, my heart before the . . .
FATHER: If I was to tell you I did or did not, you would have the same opinion still.
Bishop S.: No -- no.
FATHER: Truly might have I said through the mouth of Shakespeare -- at least through his writings:
'He that you convince against his will, he has the same opinion still.'
It is a true saying. So, I AM not trying to convince you; I do not try to convince
anyone Personally, and I have millions of followers the universe over, and thousands
and thousands right here in New York City, and if you happen to be at some of
our meetings while you are here, you will see I have, and they are all with one
accord as a rule; but I do not try to convince them Who I AM, or try to convince
them that I know what is in their minds, but they seemingly think it -- think
I know -- and if they do not know I know, they think I know; they believe I do.
This is the first step towards conversion anyway, is to believe . .
Bishop S.: Yes, that's right.
FATHER: . . . on something. So that is the mystery. So I AM not trying to convince anyone My Way of Life or My Doctrine saving as I live it and express it.
Bishop S.: But yet YOU believe in the Holy Bible?
FATHER: Positively! -- founded on the Holy Bible.
Secretary: When Peter asked Jesus if He was the Christ, Jesus said,
'Who do you say I am?'
Mrs. S.: That's just what I was thinking.
FATHER: Yes. Now, he was asking ME the question I should ask him, you see . . .
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . but I did not wish to put you on the spot because I do not wish to have you cultivate or sow seed of doubt. If you do not know, I would rather for you to wait until you do know before you be forced into saying either way, because I know I want you to tell the truth and I want you to receive the truth.
Bishop S.: Oh yes, I'm going to tell the truth!
FATHER: You see, I want you to receive the truth.
Bishop S.: Yes, I'm going to tell the truth.
FATHER: It is wonderful! I mean, so many people, you know, years ago -- some thirty, forty or fifty years ago people used to try to fight with ME because of My strange belief, you know, in a way of speaking; but I try to shun a battle, try to shun a battle and try to harmonize if possible. The Bible says:
'Agree with thine adversary quickly whilst thou art in the way with him.'
But I do desire to see everyone know the truth concerning themselves and ME or
anyone else, but I do not wish to try to get someone to believe through the way
of coercion . . .
Bishop S.: Yes --yes.
FATHER: . . . But sincerely I do say I want you to pray to GOD in your own way.
Bishop S.: Yes, I am going to pray, I am going to do that.
FATHER: Yes, and have your wife to pray with one accord, and you know that is the Scripture:
'When you come together on one accord, asking and touching upon the one thing that is needful, there I AM in the midst of you,'
says Christ,
'to bless the needy,'
and I will -- or any other blessing, if you are sincere.
I often say to people, matters not -- I AM not trying to tell the people, trying to make the people say I AM GOD against their will, but if they desire to know, let them ask of GOD according to their own religious conviction. Now you asked ME; naturally if I was to tell you it would not be in you, unless I tell you from the within, you see. You would not have the witness within, yourself. But if you ask GOD according to the way you serve GOD, because each person has his own proper gift and calling -- you remember that? -- and he can approach the throne of grace accordingly.
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: You may approach it one way and another may approach it another, but according to your respective religious conviction and the religious spiritual awakening you have had, you can and will approach the throne of grace and you will get an answer from that angle. But you may not get it from the angle of the Methodists or Baptists, though they may get an answer from theirs, but you may get one from your conviction, according to the religious statistics, your conviction would be a different unfoldment from the ordinary sectarian church person's religion.
Bishop S.: Yes -- yes.
FATHER: Therefore, you would have to contact from a deeper religious conviction because you believe in the baptism of the HOLY GHOST, do you not?
Bishop S.: Yes, I believe in that.
FATHER: Well then, the Spirit in you no doubt would give you the answer through the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues or give it to you by inspiration or intuition through the awakened Spirit within in the name of the Holy Ghost. Someone else who has not had the spiritual awakening, GOD will speak to them, too, if they are sincere; but HE would not speak to them from that angle because maybe they would not understand it. Lots of people who are Christians do not believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost -- I mean Christians, belonging to the Christian Church -- but you do, and I can talk with you along those lines because I know of the Spirit that awakeneth and quickeneth and the awakened Spirit will arouse you and move you volitionally beyond your personal control.
Bishop S.: That's right.
FATHER: So it is a wonderful thought. So I do hope you will for your own sake and for the sake of thousands of others, those of your followers and others, or your members and others; I hope you might reach out in all sincerity and make a special prayer. I AM not going to ask you to pray for ME in the way the average person does, but I ask you to pray to GOD according to both and your wife's own religious conviction to find out anything you want to know about ME, and whatsoever the Holy Spirit tells you I AM willing to go by it, or let you go by it and endorse you.
Bishop S.: Well now, about three more questions I want to ask YOU, then I will be finished. Now -- in fact, about four questions. Now, the first one is: do YOU condemn man and his wife?
FATHER: Does Jesus?
Bishop S.: Not according to the Scripture.
FATHER: Well, whatsoever Jesus said, that is what I repeat, I rehearse. Now, whatsoever Jesus says, that is what I rehearse and I heartily endorse everything Jesus said.
Bishop S.: I see. Well now. Well, I tell YOU, the reason I am asking YOU these questions, you see, I want to know for myself. Now the most of them, they have told me that YOU did not approve -- in fact, when they come in Your Kingdom or worship, of Your belief that YOU are GOD, that whosoever has a wife they leave their wife and the wife leaves them and they are brothers and sisters.
FATHER: That is up to them.
Bishop S.: Up to them?
FATHER: Yes, that is up to them. It is the same as it is in reference to the registering for the Army and Navy or for the war: some of My followers may voluntarily join the United States Army without even being drafted; some of them may not. Some of them may be conscientious objectors according to their own individual religious conviction. See, that is the privilege you have where the Spirit of GOD is. There is liberty!
'Where the Spirit of GOD is there is liberty,'
but yet it does not tell a person to do wrong or to do anything that is in violation
to what Jesus said, but it frees them so they can do whatsoever they are led
to do. But I stress, as I AM talking to you now in reference to finding out about
ME, the significance of each person getting his own religious conviction . . .
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . and being led by his own individual highest intuition.
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: Now, we find there are those, as you say, who do not -- whether they are in the immediate connections under the jurisdiction of followers or believers or members of My Church or Churches or not, when they get to a certain degree in the Spirit, they may be as was in the experience of the Children of Israel when GOD told them to sanctify themselves. Sanctification in that particular instance meant separation, did it not?
'Separate yourselves from your wives and husbands, for you have to go up against a battle.'
or something of that sort. At that time they did it.
In this time those who may have that deeper conviction -- that is why I mentioned a little while ago each person after his own manner of conversion or unfoldment of the Christ within. I said the Methodists or Baptists -- you remember that I mentioned that they do not have the same degree of a religious conviction that you have? Yours may be deeper according to your respective profession, if you are the bishop of the Holiness Church, because the Holiness people have not only the first work of grace but maybe the third work of grace, you see -- a third unfoldment, if you would retrace it back to when the Holiness Movement first began in this country; and even in other countries the people got converted in the Methodist or Baptist Church, lots of them, and then even properly got sanctified.
I recall when Bishop Stafford, when they sent out he got sanctified just before I went South. Just before the first time I had gone South from up here, they say he was belonging to the Episcopal Church and he really got the Holy Ghost, he claimed. You see, he got another degree of unfoldment of the Spirit. So each one after his own religious conviction, according to My Version; but one may have a conviction that he should not live like that, and another may have a conviction that he should and it is up to them as far as I AM concerned. But to be frank with you, the Bible did not say, not that I bear record of, that there would be marrying and giving in marriage in the Kingdom . . .
Bishop S.: No, the Bible doesn't say that. In the Kingdom, it says, no giving in marriage or no marriage.
FATHER: Yes. Well, some believe they have entered that Kingdom-ship degree, that Kingdom-ship degree of grace, as it may be termed, and some actually believe in living exactly as Jesus lived before his crucifixion; and not a true believer in Christ believes that Jesus ever indulged in human affection, do they? I mean, some of the Jews or those who do not believe in Christ, may believe that He did, but regardless to what you may think of ME or anyone else may say of anybody else, if you are a true Christian and believe in Jesus, you do not believe that Jesus ever indulged in human affection.
Bishop S.: That's right, that's right.
FATHER: Well then, some try to live just like Jesus lived before He was crucified and try to live just as Mary lived before Jesus was born, and it is logical as far as that is concerned, if they see it that way . . .
Bishop S.: Oh yes, it is.
FATHER: . . . because Jesus said:
'Follow Me; I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by me,'
and you cannot get to GOD except through Christ; through the Way Christ lived,
according to that, and it is a close walk. But if a man and wife choose to live
as a man and wife, that is your business so long as you choose to live respectably
according to the world's moral way of living. But when you get a deeper conviction,
you may sacrifice all of the human pleasure for righteousness' sake . . .
Mrs. S.: I see what YOU mean.
FATHER: . . . and to prove this, that they are right who do it; to justify them according to the gospel, we know Jesus was holy . . .
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . regardless to what anybody else may do or say, and it matters not what the people may think or say, Jesus was holy according to the real Christian religion, and would not indulge in human affection; and for Mary to conceive the Holy Ghost -- see the point? For Mary to conceive the Holy Ghost she was obliged to be virtuous and holy to conceive that immaculate birth. See the mystery?
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: And according to My conviction, in that particular instance, if I will bring out My point there, some of the believers really believe that they should live like Jesus lived to be a perfect man or be a perfect child of GOD.
Bishop S.: Well, I believe in the Scripture, that some of them will make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of GOD'S sake.
FATHER: That's right. And there are those who actually do it, the same as someone said this morning how some of the brothers were moving some lady -- I mean, some have moving vans and they were moving some lady and the lady wanted to ride with them, and they said they would not let her ride with them; it was not according to My Teaching, they said. Well, of course, the prayer has been on record for many years:
'Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil,'
and if a person would abstain from all inclinations and tendencies and fancies
and pleasures of those human affections and desires of mortality, they would
be led away from those things many times.
Bishop S.: Yes -- yes.
FATHER: Humanly speaking, you would have an inclination or tendency to like to have a lady sit by you and ride in the car with you, or something of that sort, whether you would be married to her or not -- I mean without the grace of GOD, without some moral training you have that tendency, you see.
Bishop S.: Yes -- yes.
FATHER: Well,
'lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.'
Now, if you make a custom of sitting with the opposite sex and riding with them
correspondingly, you may be tempted.
Bishop S.: Yes, that's true.
FATHER: You see the mystery? You may be tempted! Anybody, it is true, may be tempted, and if you do not lead yourself into that temptation, I AM going to try to keep you from being led into it. I do not wish to lead you into it; I do not want to tell you, "Oh, you get up here in the car with some lady that is not your wife and sit up close to her," and such as that, or try to tempt you in any way. You said,
'Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from all that is evil . . .'
Bishop S.: All evil!
FATHER:
'. . . for thine is the power, the kingdom and the glory.'
You see the mystery?
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: So it is a wonderful thought. So, if people would but live the gospel and even say, live that prayer, they would be born again, born out of that Adamic state of consciousness and be new creatures, because they would be led in a different direction and would be transformed by the renewing of their minds so they might prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of GOD.
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: Well now, when Mary conceived the Holy Ghost she had to be free from human affection and had to be virtuous, according to My Version, and I believe for you to have received the Holy Ghost you had to be that way at that instant when you did receive it . . .
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . even if you went back to human affection. You see, I believe you got your mind off human affection and everything else at that particular moment before you got the Holy Ghost.
Bishop S.: That's right.
FATHER: You see, it is a wonderful thought. I think I had better stop! It will get ME stirred up here. But that is the thought of it and it is well worth considering to really be able to comprehend the Life of Christ, to understand the Life of Christ and endeavor to live it.
Now, conscientiously, as I say, I do not believe that you would have had a Savior had GOD not prepared one, Mary, that was holy, to conceive the Holy Ghost as the first-born among many brethren, and you have to get holy to receive that Holy Ghost - - I mean you have to get cleansed from the filth and lust and passion such as mortality has before you can get the Holy Ghost, if it is only for that instant. But many of them get it and then go back in sin, you know; but to get the Holy Ghost you have to get your mind off all of that.
Bishop S.: Oh yes, that's right.
FATHER: Well know, I believe that Mary conceived the Holy Ghost to give an immaculate birth to the Son of GOD as the first-born among many brethren, just as everyone should be clean vessels to receive the Holy Ghost; to live the Holy Life, you see, that the Holy Ghost might be conceived in them in their lives and in their souls, even as Mary conceived it to give birth to the first-born. We do not have to give birth to any more like that, but we believe others who receive the Holy Ghost become one of the brethren. Jesus was the first-born, but when you are conceived and received by the Holy Ghost, you are quickened and are awakened and you become to be one of them of whom the Bible was speaking, one of them of whom Jesus was the first-born like unto Him, your Brother, filled with the Holy Ghost and with the Nature of GOD. That is My belief. The Holy Ghost merely means the actual Nature of GOD transmitted!
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: Of course, it is the Three in One -- GOD, the Holy Ghost and the Son -- but the Nature is put forth in the Holy Ghost, in My opinion. So that is some of My belief, but as far as I AM Personally concerned about Myself, I need not tell you. Let the Holy Spirit tell you.
Bishop S.: Well, do YOU believe that a man or a woman can live on earth always without ceasing?
FATHER: According to the gospel.
Bishop S.: I mean, just natural, a mortal body.
FATHER: According to the gospel.
Bishop S.: It will never fade away?
FATHER: Not the natural, but I believe it will be unnatural -- in other words, I believe it will be supernatural.
Bishop S.: Yes -- yes, I will take that -- supernatural.
FATHER: Yes, we can live supernaturally, because Jesus said:
'If a man keep My sayings he shall never see death.'
Bishop S.: Never see death, yes.
FATHER: He did not say, "If the spirit of man keep My sayings . . ."
Bishop S.: Yes.
FATHER: . . . He did not say, "If the mind of man . . . if the soul of man keep My sayings . . ." but,
'If a man keep My sayings he shall never see death.'
Bishop S.: Yes, I know that, because death will have no more dominion over the
body.
FATHER: That's right. But the body is transformed as said Paul in the twelfth chapter of Romans:
'I beseech ye therefore, brethren, by the mercies of GOD, that ye present your bodies as living sacrifices, holy, acceptable unto GOD, which is your reasonable service; and be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind . . .'
Bishop S.: Well, what did Job mean that
'man that is born of a woman is of a few days?'
FATHER: Well, according to My version, if you want ME to tell you, according
to My version a man that is born of a woman must be born again.
Bishop S.: He has to be born again.
FATHER: And when he is born again, he is a new creature and is no longer the old one that was born the first time; therefore, he puts off the old man and puts on the new Man, Christ Jesus, and becomes to be like unto the Son of GOD -- if he will live it. I do not say that he will live it; so many people will not live it, but yet if they live it, I believe that they would be transformed by the renewing of the mind.
Bishop S.: Well, what becomes of the people that die, the natural body that goes back to the dust?
FATHER:
'The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
Bishop S.: That's right. Well, Jesus said He was coming back; that was the Word
. . .
FATHER: Well, that is what I AM trying to do now; cleanse them according to the Scripture, yea, according to the prophecy:
'He shall sit as a refiner and as a purifier of silver and he shall purge them.'
Not a true follower of MINE would smoke a cigarette! Not a true follower of MINE
would indulge in the opposite sex, even if they were married! Now, that is the
True followers who are endeavoring to live exactly according to Jesus.
'He shall sit as a refiner and as a purifier of silver and he shall purify the sons of Levi,'
purge them from all of their dross -- mortal tendencies, fancies and pleasures,
lust and passion and everything that is detrimental!
Bishop S.: But He said He was coming back on a cloud.
FATHER: What kind of a cloud did He say He was coming on?
Bishop S.: He said a cloud with many witnesses with Him.
FATHER: You have a good many witnesses with you when you get to preaching at times; clouds of witnesses around you, and no doubt the Holy Ghost descends when you get to preaching about the Life of Christ effectively and thinking of nothing but GOD. No doubt the Holy Ghost comes down like it did to the Children of Israel in the wilderness and at the time when the tabernacle was built and GOD came down quite often when all are in one accord, even as at the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost descended.
Bishop S.: Well, do YOU believe in the Day of Judgment, the Resurrection?
FATHER: It is wonderful!
Mrs. S.: It's now!
Bishop S.: I know the Day -- I am talking about the Resurrection
FATHER: What did Jesus tell the woman, as you mentioned what Jesus told the woman at the well? What did He tell Martha and Mary?
'I am the resurrection and the Life; he that believeth on me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.'
Bishop S.: Shall never die! I know that's true.
FATHER: Well, it is good to take GOD at His Word and frequently it will lift you and you are made new creatures.
Bishop S.: In other words, this body will not have to go back to the dust?
FATHER: If you are purged of all corruption.
Bishop S.: That's right.
FATHER:
'He shall purify the sons of Levi.'
Some people may not get purged to the full measure, but that is what we desire
to see: all completely purged of all mortality so that they might put on immortality
and no longer be natural but be supernatural.
Mrs. S.: FATHER -- let me say a word too, please -- FATHER DIVINE, in case that a person, their body don't be purged enough to keep that spirit that belongs there, if that spirit takes off that body, would that spirit be incarnated in another body than it, that would be able to carry on to the perfect day?
FATHER: That is the belief. It goes on to Perfection, for, according to Hebrews -- as recorded in Hebrews -- the apostle declared that these are the spirits,
'this is the general assembly of the church of the first-born where the spirits of just men are made perfect.'
Therefore, just men, even though they were just, they were not made perfect;
hence, you must be made perfect in the assembly, and that is what we are doing
now.
Not a true follower of MINE would drink a drink of beer or drink a glass of intoxicating liquor or wine, even if they would have had an appetite or desire to do it, for My great Name's sake and for the Work's sake and for the FATHER'S sake; and for their religious conviction's sake, you see, they would not indulge in anything they feel would be detrimental. So they are being purged. It is wonderful! And the spirits, as you say, we believe they are reincarnated . . .
Mrs. S.: I believe that.
FATHER: . . . for it is written, Jesus said:
'If ye will receive it, this is Elijah who was to come.'
Although John was born just about six months before the Body called Jesus was
born, and Elijah had been gone many years, He said:
'If ye will receive it, this is Elijah who was to come.'
So you can plainly see the reincarnation of the Spirit of just men takes on bodies
according to this evidence, and they are being developed into a more perfect
state of being.
Mrs. S.: Yes, I believe that.
FATHER: It is a wonderful life to live.
Mrs. S.: And, FATHER DIVINE, that part of the Scripture where it says:
'Many are called but few are chosen,'
from all over the world; they may be called into the Kingdom and may help build
up the Kingdom, but if they are not chosen, when time comes they will not be
in the Kingdom, they will go back somewhere.
FATHER: They left their habitations, the Scripture says. Some went one way and some went another way.
Bishop S.: Do YOU believe in the Lake of Fire?
FATHER: Well, of course, what I may consider the Lake of Fire may not be considered the Lake of Fire by some others. There is an interpretation of the Scripture to be given according to the understanding of the people. GOD speaks in parables, that is commonly known; but in your own language, according to the way you can understand it, GOD will speak.
Now it is written -- at least you see that it is not just what we might take things from a human point of view, according to the mortal mind, as it may be termed. Jesus said:
'It is not meet to give the children's bread to the dogs . . . Cast not pearls before swine.'
He was not speaking of four-footed animals but those of the characteristics of
animals. So it is with the fire and brimstone and many other things which are
spoken of, but there is an understanding to be derived from them by the SPIRIT
of the LIVING GOD.
We often say: "GOD is His own interpreter and HE will make it plain," but at times until one is ready to receive it, it may not be revealed so explicitly; but when he is ready to receive it, it will be made plain. See the mystery? So that is the thought of it. We cannot have any of the mortal traditional systems that we could bind our thoughts to after the manner of men, for their versions are spoken in consideration by the SPIRIT according to their understanding.
Bishop S.: Well, do YOU believe that the gospel that I am preaching now, according to my understanding and the knowledge of the HOLY SPIRIT -- do YOU believe that my preaching is in vain?
FATHER: Well, that would depend. You know what you are preaching, and I assume you consider I know what you are preaching according to the words I have dropped here and there . . .
Bishop S.: Wonderful!
FATHER: . . . but there are deeper depths and higher heights . . .
Bishop S.: Yes, yes.
FATHER: . . . and the Bible does say:
'Grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.'
Bishop S.: That's right, that's right.
FATHER: We are not living scientifically now in the tallow candle age; we have advanced scientifically, why not advance . . .
Mrs. S.: . . . spiritually.
FATHER: . . . spiritually. You see, the average person if he is not watchful, he is back in orthodoxy and in tradition. "My old mother and my old father believed in this," or "They were Baptists bred and Baptists born, and when I die it will be a Baptist gone," and so on like that.
Bishop S.: Well, FATHER, now I guess this will be the last question I ask YOU . . .
Mrs. S.: I hope so.
Bishop S.: All right, I am going to make this the last one: now, give me the understanding what Jesus meant when He said that he was coming back after "a church without a spot or wrinkle." And in that day, He said, we would be caught up in the twinkling of the eye in midair . . .
FATHER: I believe you are pretty well caught up with ME now, in a way. Oh, it is wonderful! The prayer you all have prayed:
'Let thy kingdom come and thy will be done"--
it is written:
'It cometh not with observation . . . Behold the kingdom of God is within you,'
and as with the Kingdom of GOD, so with the mystery of many things concerning
Christ and His Coming.
'It is better revealed than told.'
It is not correctly explained in merely the reading, but there is an interpretation,
therefore an understanding must be given by the Holy Spirit.
'When he the Spirit of truth has come, He will teach you all things, whatsoever I have said unto you,'
give you understanding concerning the mystery and
'bring all things to your remembrance.'
It is wonderful!
Bishop S.: All right. I said that was the last question; I'm not going to ask YOU another.
FATHER: Well, I really enjoyed your talk even though it may not have been quite as you may have expected, but I believe you will be benefited because I did not direct you to ME as a Person .. .
Bishop S.: Yes -- yes. I understand.
FATHER: . . . I directed you to Christ from your own religious conviction whereby you will be led in the positive direction for it is impossible to be led erroneously if you are conscientious, sincere and true; all you have to do is believe what I say and just leave your prayer like that. You would not have, as the old saying is, a leg to stand upon as far as I would be concerned, in the way of speaking, trying to take all authority.
But I want everyone to know his or her GOD and know GOD from your own starting point. Be true, be true and then know your GOD from that starting point and HE will lead you on to victory; and I AM not afraid of His telling you anything against ME.
Bishop S.: That's fine, that's fine.
FATHER: It is wonderful! (rising) While we were sitting you could have had a drink of water or something; it has been so long.
Bishop S.: I certainly am proud; I'm proud, and I will be -- it seems like I don't know -- I want to have one more talk with YOU sometime before I leave and I will be perfectly satisfied; but I'm going to pray first.
FATHER: Well, maybe it may not be necessary (referring to another Personal contact) -- that is what I tell people all over the world. You need not contact ME Personally especially, but if you make the mental and spiritual contact you will get the desirable results. I try to keep My Personality out of the picture.
Bishop S.: It comes in as a reveal-ation.
FATHER: Yes, but I would appreciate your coming to the meetings, to My private assemblies the same as here, and tonight we serve the banquet at One Hundred and Twenty-sixth Street. We have a practical way of serving Holy Communion, and all of the places you are welcome to attend.
(FATHER proceeded to describe the Holy Communion, giving several of the addresses in the City where HE may Personally preside over the Services, concluding with an invitation to Bishop and Mrs. S. to inspect the recently acquired Peace Center and Nazareth Missions' Home for the Aged, Church and Training School on One Hundred and Twenty-eight Street, which they gratefully accepted.)
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