The Condescension of God As Revealed by Father Divine in an Interview with Dr. Lewi Pethrus,
Pastor and Editor from Stockholm, Sweden

"The Way to Salvation. The True Concept of All Things Should Be Established by the Realization and Recognition,
in Other Words by Knowing, That GOD Is Actually Present." --- FATHER DIVINE


The House of the Lord, North-West View

The House of the Lord, north-west view

"Come ye, and let us go up to the Mountain of The LORD,
to The House of The GOD of Jacob;
and He will teach us of His Ways, and we will walk in His Paths." -Isaiah 2:3
"Behold, The TABERNACLE of GOD is with men,
and HE will dwell with them, and they shall be HIS People,
and GOD HIMSELF shall be with them, and be their GOD." -Revelation 21:3.
"Hence, for the purpose of visualization and concentration, GOD, through His Condescension, made His WORD a visible observable TABERNACLE, a BODY of FLESH, that you might observe The ALMIGHTY!" --- FATHER DIVINE.

For more than fifty years they have been coming from all parts of the Earth to see Him, to hear Him, and learn of His Ways: priests, ministers, rabbis, swamis, monks, sheiks, metaphysicians, philosophers, educators, scholars, writers - even agnostics and atheists!

And because He is so deeply dedicated to His Work, FATHER DIVINE takes time to see everyone who desires an audience; and even sacrifices the hours and days He might spend at recreation and relaxation to answer, Personally, the thousands of letters He receives weekly from His millions of Followers, Friends, and Well-wishers.

One of the most interesting and enlightening interviews ever granted by FATHER DIVINE -especially from a layman's viewpoint - was that given to Dr. Lewi Pethrus, Pastor of Philadelphia Church in Stockholm, Sweden's largest; and Editor of a daily newspaper in the same city, the Stockholm-Tidningen.

At the time, America was battling a major depression. In Europe, Adolph Hitler was sowing the seeds for a World War. In New York City, FATHER DIVINE was healing the sick, injecting Hope to the downtrodden, imparting Wisdom to the ignorant, and feeding thousands of unemployed daily -- without cost or obligation!

Dr. Pethrus was accompanied by another minister who did not take part in the fascinating discussion that is hereinafter recorded verbatim. Thank YOU, FATHER!


FATHER DIVINES'S Interview at His New York City Headquarters
20 West 115th Street, New York City,
Wednesday Morning. December 2, 1936 A.D.F.D., Time:11:15 A.M.


Dr. Pethrus: We are very glad to have an opportunity to see YOU. I am a writer for a newspaper in Sweden, and I want some information concerning Your work and Your thoughts about the world.

I have just been here and seen Your Work. It is quite a big work; and how long time has it been going on -- this Work down here?

FATHER: To speak after the manner of men, I do not know that I could justifiably give you an answer to that. Firstly, I would like to say, we are not in Time. That is the first step to be considered.

Nextly, at this seeming time we are not contributing to newspapers. We are not giving any special information saving as men, or those who are representatives of the different periodicals, if they wish to cover our movement, our demonstrations, our public meetings and such as that, they are welcome to get whatsoever they can.

Of course, I have had quite a number of interviews recently, up until several months ago, when we refrained from giving interviews for the purpose of publication. Of course I do not mind talking with a person -- I considered you were a minister, or represented the ministry.

Dr. Pethrus: Yes, I am a pastor you see, also over a Church in Sweden, the largest Church, with a membership of more than five thousand. It is just as a Christian pastor and a spiritual man I want to know the movement, you see, and the people are interested. But if YOU do not want me to write in that paper about it I would promise YOU not to do that, in this daily paper.

FATHER: (noting that Dr. Pethrus had observed the morning mail piled high on His desk) I have quite a little correspondence from Sweden, Germany, and all over.

Dr. Pethrus: (looking at one letter with a foreign stamp.) This is from Finland.

FATHER: Yes, these are just a few letters that just came in.

Dr. Pethrus: (looking at others letters.) These are from Sweden, Stockholm, Yes, that is interesting.

FATHER: This is just a few of the morning's mail just arrived.

Dr. Pethrus: YOU are in contact with people also in Sweden?


Dr. Pethrus: But what are Your Thoughts of the conditions now? What is going to happen in the world concerning the things -- the evil things for instance, that we have in the world? What help do YOU think can come to man in these hard conditions? Is it any help to wait?

FATHER: Well I would consider as an individual, the recognition of the actual Presence of GOD in the place of the good, and the abolition of the mortal concept of the evils among us.

Dr. Pethrus: Yes. (After a pause:) I do not understand. Excuse me; I am not acquainted with the English language. I have been here for two months only, but I am interested to know about that. On every Christian heart it is a burden concerning the hard things that the people are going through. It would be interesting to know Your view of the help for manhood in the coming time.

FATHER: The recognition of the actual Presence of GOD -- in other words, Realizing or Knowing, GOD is actually Present with the children of men.

Dr. Pethrus: YOU think that is the help for the world?

FATHER: Positively! To know the Truth concerning all things! The false concept of things should no longer have an existence in this light of civilization. The true concept of all things should be established by the realization or recognition -- in other words, by knowing GOD is actually Present with the children of men, and living thus accordingly. Men fail to produce and manifest the qualities of good as they are expressed in the Spiritual realm, because they keep the heavenly state of expression from the conscious concept of themselves. They refuse to consciously conceive the idea that those things which are in the heavenly state of expression from their religious version can be and actually are among them. Men pray,

'Let Thy Kingdom come and Thy Will be done.'

Do you pray that prayer in your Churches among your people?

Dr. Pethrus: Surely! Sure!

FATHER: Well, you are praying to let the heavenly state of expression and the heavenly government -- in other words, politically let the heavenly government come to the earth plane where GOD alone shall reign.

Hence, this prayer has been prayed by millions of Christians and even others, but in other languages. Where they are still imagining in themselves that Heaven is some place geographically; they never come to the realization that it is present with them. Therefore they refuse to bring the concept of Heaven into action and into the conscious realization of themselves, you see. By this, they cannot manifest the heavenly state of expression, neither can the Supreme Governing forces from the Supreme, have access among them, for they will not open up.

As said the Scripture on one occasion -- at least in one quotation, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." The mission of CHRIST was to get men to know GOD was Present with them. That was the Mission of CHRIST in the name Immanuel. I presume you may understand!

Dr. Pethrus: GOD with us!

FATHER: Yes, being interpreted, GOD is with us -- but men in mortal consciousness keep "the other fellow" with them, other than GOD, in their consideration. Therefore it is a matter of impossibility for the Godly state of expression and the heavenly government to be the ruling force among them, because they refuse to allow that concept to have access fully in the mentality of those dwelling upon the face of the earth. But with My Concept and Recognition, I establish the actual realization of the Presence of GOD as a Living Factor in the hearts and lives of all humanity who will bring themselves into subjection to the great Fundamental.

By this we have come in reality from the imaginary heaven. From the invisible realm cometh forth the ecstasy and the Majesty of His Holiness from the Supreme, and it is brought forth into outer expression on the material plane. By so doing, CHRIST in reality here and now is ruling as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings; for wheresoever a king reigns, there is where his kingdom is.

CHRIST must first come mentally and spiritually on the throne of the minds of the children of men. From that angle of expression He will rule the inhabitants of the earth, the same as human intellect or human intelligence. Human intelligence has influence over the minds of men. Skill and ability is an outward expression of human intelligence from one or two angles of it. As a parable, human intelligence has been and still is an expression of GOD'S Wisdom to the children of men, manifesting in mortal consciousness.

The mortal concept of things will prohibit GOD from coming into the reign from the Godly state of expression. Therefore, they usurp these powers that be -- the mental and spiritual and physical and skillful and scientific powers that be -- through the mortal concept of things, and by so doing with the mortal mind, through selfish tendencies, selfish fancies, pleasures and desires, they use these powers of the mind and of the spirit and of the energy, the skill and the ability, for a destructive purpose.

They destroy rather than build up! But when the CHRIST mind shall have arisen on the horizon of the human understanding, men will live in the Light of His Presence and the Presence of GOD will be to them a redemption from those conditions.

Dr. Pethrus: Yes. I thank YOU. I thank YOU for Your statement. Well, what do YOU say about CHRIST here? Do YOU believe that CHRIST is a Bodily Person now?

FATHER: Well, CHRIST is as you allow Him to be! If you allow Him to be merely mental according to your concept, He will be mentally expressed; but if you allow Him to be to Spiritually manifest as your bodies are His temples He will materially manifest Himself in the bodies of the children of men, and will appear among them according to their respective versions concerning Him.

Dr. Pethrus: Well, this healing; YOU believe in healing! I believe in healing too, and YOU work healing among the people. Do YOU believe that CHRIST has something to do with that -- the healings that happen?

FATHER: CHRIST, or GOD, is the only healing, or Healer there is. When the application of the true remedy shall have been applied to the lives of the children of men, they will be healed of all of their ills.

Dr. Pethrus: Yes. Now when the people are recognizing YOU as GOD, do YOU claim Yourself as GOD?

FATHER: Well now, My Belief would not be the redemption of mankind as far as I AM individually concerned. The belief in others is the salvation of them, or it is their d--nation as it may be termed.

Dr. Pethrus: But they believe that YOU Are GOD Bodily. Don't they do that? I think I have spoken with some people who say that YOU Are GOD appearing in a Body now. Is that Your Teaching?

FATHER: What is GOD? If you tell ME what is GOD, it may be in a way, the question would be answered. Now what do you do and those of your members or followers, or believers believe GOD to be?

Dr. Pethrus: Yes, they believe that GOD is in heaven.

FATHER: What is HE?

Dr. Pethrus: What is HE? HE is a Spirit.

FATHER: Well, what is a Spirit? Can you define a Spirit?

Dr. Pethrus: Yes, Spirit is in a person, indissoluble, but not having a body.

FATHER: Well, what is a person, and what are the visible things of life? What do they consist of? Maybe it may be possible for us to get together.

Dr. Pethrus: By the visible things we usually mean the things that we can see and touch as a visible thing. The invisible is things that exist but we cannot realize them with our mere minds.

FATHER: Well, that is the thought! As I afore said, the mortal concept of the children of men, and especially of the Religions, they carry the children of men far from the actuality of GOD. Therefore they bring destruction to the world by their concept concerning GOD and Spiritual things.

Dr. Pethrus: What is then the truth about GOD now?

FATHER: GOD is as man, and man is as GOD. As we are, so is HE, and

'As He is, so are we in this present world.'

The latter statement is a quotation

-- " , so are we in this present world.'

The condescension of GOD to the children of men for the redemption of them, was to materialize Himself, yea, even personify Himself in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, to condemn sin in the flesh.

Dr. Pethrus: YOU mean CHRIST?

FATHER: GOD! Jesus is CHRIST, and CHRIST is GOD! The Word was made Flesh. The Word was GOD according to the Scripture, yea, even the Gospel. Therefore GOD materialized Himself, and would not and did not stop at materializing Himself, but HE Personified Himself in the likeness of sinful man.

As GOD created man in His Image and Likeness while GOD was invisible apparently, GOD reformed Himself in the likeness of man that mankind might see HIM as HE was, yea, as HE IS! When mankind shall see HIM as HE Is, they will be like HIM for HE Is like them.

Dr. Pethrus: But do YOU mean then that everyone that GOD lives in, that he is GOD? For instance, I believe in GOD; I believe that GOD is in me; that the Holy Spirit is in me. Do YOU believe that every person who has surrendered his life to GOD, that he is GOD?

FATHER: Well, suppose I would ask you a question! Do you believe that every person who can read -- in other words, say his alphabets -- is an intelligent person?

Dr. Pethrus: A person who cannot say the alphabet?

FATHER: A person that can only say his alphabet! Do you believe this person is an intelligent person, if he can only say his alphabets?

Dr. Pethrus: No.

FATHER: So it is with GOD! It is the same as with the principle of mathematics. Every person has a right to study for an education, using the principle of mathematics especially; for that is a part of his human intelligence for his personal existence. Nevertheless, because a person can know or understand the numbers on the streets, or the street numbers, it does not say that every person that can see the numbers on your doors, or your address, like this is 20 West 115th Street -- if a person can know this number when he gets to it, it does not say he is a mathematician, does it?

Dr. Pethrus: No.

FATHER: The answer is in that parable. Because GOD may express to a limited degree in an individual, it does not say every individual is GOD. Every person that walks the street, each person that walks the street, he is not a mathematician, but he must needs know enough of mathematics to know the numbers of the streets and the addresses, to find the place where he is going. Of course, he needs to know more and he may know a good deal more, but it does not say that he is a mathematician.

Dr. Pethrus: But then, every person that gets a high knowledge of GOD -- is he GOD?

FATHER: Well, does every person become to be a mathematician?

Dr. Pethrus: Yes; but it is a little difference between mathematics and our relationship to GOD.

FATHER: Well, parably speaking, it is equivalently the same; mathematics is invisible. The principle of mathematics is invisible. But when mankind develops the human intellect into that which is termed human intelligence of the past, present, and what we may term to be the future history of things, I may say when mankind can speak of these things intelligently and understand them consciously, that person is called an intelligent person because he has developed that invisible intelligence to a degree that that person has become to be the personification of that which he has developed and brought to fruition in his mentality.

Dr. Pethrus: Yes. I think I understand Your thoughts. If you have a real high understanding of the things concerning GOD, the more you are GOD.

FATHER: Well, we may draw this parable for consideration: The Mystery of GOD as revealed, was in the Person of Jesus, to whom it is given, every man after his own special calling. But after the manner of men I speak -- the condescension of GOD to the children of men was to bring them in closer fellowship with HIM -- but HE appeared among them as a Man that they might understand. The Word was made Flesh. HE was GOD, Mind and Spirit, but the Spirit Personified and made visible that it might be observed and do GOD'S Bidding, that mankind might copy after the fashion HE would show them and would be showing them. In His physical likeness as theirs in Himself, HE would manifest Himself in the Flesh that they might observe HIM as HE is. That was the mystery!

Dr. Pethrus: But what is the sign of that Person as GOD? What is the sign of GOD when HE appears to man?

FATHER: Well, the signs are not the significance. The significance in My Version is to recognize GOD'S actual Presence and live accordingly, without the human intellect trying to measure GOD with the measure of a man. The human intellect is finite; GOD'S Omniscience is infinite. Man cannot measure GOD out. When Job was called into question concerning GOD'S Majesty and Infiniteness, Job could not answer the questions.

So it is today. When GOD speaks from His Own Omniscience without a letter of any alphabet of our human vocabularies, they cannot understand HIM, for HE speaks from the place from whence cometh all Wisdom, all Knowledge and Understanding. Therefore HE may be speaking from one angle that they are not acquainted with, and HE condescendingly will speak from the angle that they are acquainted with, His Mind and His Ways and His Versions, will be so far from theirs it will be a matter of impossibility for them to understand HIM.

It has long since been declared,

'Your ways are not My Ways, neither are your thoughts My Thoughts, says the Lord. As high as the heaven is above the earth, even so high are My Ways above your ways, and My Thoughts than your thoughts.'

Therefore let the man that is not like GOD forsake his ways and try to find GOD, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; his thoughts concerning GOD. He is trying to find out GOD by his finite wisdom, but if he will forsake those things, GOD will reveal to him that which he might desire to find by his finite mind.

Dr. Pethrus: But I would like to have a clearer opinion of that. Do YOU claim Yourself as GOD?

FATHER: Are you seeking salvation, or are you merely seeking human superstitious information?

Dr. Pethrus: You see, information must be the way to salvation for man.

FATHER: It is not by the human concept! The way for salvation to man -- the human understanding must be stilled. The human intellect must still itself and recognize GOD as HE lives and speaks, even though HE live, yea, HE Lives and Speaks in the Flesh.

Dr. Pethrus: I am sure I am an earnest man, and I want to know the truth about GOD as far as possible for me.

FATHER: Believe in GOD with all your heart, soul and mind, and relax it after believing in HIM. Relax your conscious mentality after you shall have surrendered, and GOD will abundantly bless you.

Dr. Pethrus: But excuse me! About the Bible! Can the Bible be a help for a person that will learn to know GOD?

FATHER: Positively, if he will but accept of the keynote to the Fundamental of Life which is the Teaching of JESUS the CHRIST.

Dr. Pethrus: But do Your Followers have the Bible as a rule for their lives?

FATHER: They have the Life of CHRIST as exemplified and as manifested, for I have simplified it in the actual life of humanity -- the Life of CHRIST for their guide, which is according to the Teaching as recorded in the Gospel.

Dr. Pethrus: Excuse me! Only one question more! Have YOU been in contact, and what is Your opinion and Your thought about the Pentecostal Movement?

FATHER: Well, I do not have very many thoughts about them. It is written,

'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.'

I do not have time to direct My Energy and My Thoughts in the way of trying to especially take thoughts concerning things that are not the identical, neither the fundamental. But the fundamental principle for which I stand, I stress the Life of CHRIST; I stress the Teaching of Jesus as recorded in the Four Gospels and I believe in the fulfilling -- in other words, the fulfillment of those things. I believe those things are being fulfilled according to one's faith, but faith is the great essential. Mankind, according to My Version, must seek GOD through Faith.

Faith is not something you see, neither is it something you know. If you could know GOD by the wisdom of man, the Ways of GOD would not be necessary for them; but because these things are hid from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes and sucklings, it is a matter of impossibility for the human intellect to comprehend the mysteries of GOD, or even His actual Presence.

Mankind has kept GOD in their concept, invisible, up until this present time, even as you now have HIM. But if you stop to consider, from a logical point of view as well as from a psychological point of view -- I may say from a point of view that I can explain that would be logical to you as an intelligent man -- all things we are now eating, drinking and wearing, yea, even our physical bodies as they may be termed, they all were invisible.

When the Bible said -- in other words when one writer recorded,

'No man has seen GOD at any time,'

no man has seen your body, and millions of other bodies at that time, at any time. No man at that time had seen an airplane. All of those things were in the invisible realm. The bodies of the children of men that are on the face of the earth today living, the majority of them -- or all, you may consider, were invisible. But GOD visible-ated them, or in other words, tangibilated the invisible and made it visible, and made that which was in the heaven, to come to the earth, and that which was in the earth to be made Spiritual. That is the mystery!

So GOD through His condescension, through His love and His mercy to humanity, HE appears to them according to the light of the understanding HE has given; but mankind must live up to the light that has been given. When it dawns on them, the same as this light of understanding I AM exhibiting to all humanity today, they should accept of the Light and walk in the Light, without the least reflection or rebellion to the light or to the way the CHRIST is leading for a higher and better life.

Dr. Pethrus: Only one question more! Have YOU salvation to give me, or the persons that come to YOU?

FATHER: Have I what?

Dr. Pethrus: YOU asked me if I came to get salvation. Have YOU salvation to give to men, Salvation from sin?

FATHER: Do you have it?

Dr. Pethrus: No.

FATHER: Why, you should if you are a minister!

Dr. Pethrus: No.

FATHER: You should carry salvation with you.

Dr. Pethrus: No. I believe that CHRIST --

FATHER: Well, if you have CHRIST, you have salvation. (At this moment a telephone call interrupted and FATHER talked over the phone for several minutes.)

Dr. Pethrus: (upon FATHER'S return) -- I am sorry to take up Your Time.

FATHER: That is all right, if you are not in a hurry. I have sacrificed a part of the day to see you, but I had a telephone call, and I have to make another call right away -- another connection. I AM sorry to keep you waiting.

Dr. Pethrus: (upon FATHER'S return a second time) I am sorry to take up Your Time, but it is a real opportunity for me to know about these things. I have heard so much of this, that I wanted to have a clear opinion of it, and these things concerning Yourself. The ministers -- why, generally they think that their task is to point out Jesus as the Savior, and I think my duty as a minister is to tell the people that there is Salvation in CHRIST and in GOD, but not in me.

FATHER: You don't carry CHRIST in you then!

Dr. Pethrus: I am learning to do it, and I have been a Christian for many years, and tried to live for GOD.

FATHER: Well, I can't see how you could be a Christian, if CHRIST is not in you. Paul said,

'It is no more I, but CHRIST that dwells in me.'

Dr. Pethrus: That way, CHRIST is in me, yes.

FATHER: Well then, if CHRIST is in you, you carry the CHRIST with you. If you do not carry the CHRIST with you, you are subject to disaster at any time. But as I say, the average person has allowed tradition and orthodoxy to keep CHRIST away from them, instead of allowing the fundamentals of Christianity, as taught by the early Apostles, to bring CHRIST to them and keep Him with them, and not only with them but within them.

The CHRIST, as you said a little while ago, which is GOD

' -- is a Spirit and if any man has not the Spirit of CHRIST'

as said the Apostle,

'he is none of His.'

Therefore I consider, even though you may not be conscious of it from the point that I AM speaking, that it is CHRIST in you. I AM not trying to cause a person to disbelieve in the CHRIST, where I came to convince mankind that CHRIST is in reality in them, but if they do not believe HE is without and within, they cannot have His Protection as they could with the recognition and the realization of His actual Presence.

Dr. Pethrus: But it must be a difference between people -- other people that believe CHRIST is in them -- a difference between them and YOU.

FATHER: Well, there is a difference between an egg and a chicken, is it not? Yet the egg is the same thing that the chicken was.

Dr. Pethrus: Do YOU mean that a man can be a GOD?

FATHER: Well, I did not say about man could be GOD, but an egg can be a chicken.

Dr. Pethrus: But can men, the same way be GOD?

FATHER: CHRIST can dwell in men and walk in them.

Dr. Pethrus: But even when a man is glorified in eternity, it is a difference between GOD and the glorified man.

FATHER: Well, that is the concept of those who live in that state of consciousness. They believe there is a difference, and therefore they do draw a line of demarcation between themselves and GOD, hence they cannot express, they cannot manifest. Even the metaphysicians, of whom you may be representing, cannot manifest and demonstrate the Reality of GOD, because they deny the Reality of GOD as being made real, tangible and practical. Every spirit that confesses that JESUS CHRIST is in the Flesh, is of GOD, but they deny the reality of the Personification of GOD.

Dr. Pethrus: But Your followers and YOU believe that CHRIST is in them.

FATHER: Why Sure!

Dr. Pethrus: But it must be a difference between YOU and them!

FATHER: Well, is there a Governor, or President, or King in your Country?

Dr. Pethrus: A King.

FATHER: Well, is it any difference between you and him?

Dr. Pethrus: Sure!

FATHER: Well, what difference is there?

Dr. Pethrus: Oh it is lots of difference.

FATHER: He has the same flesh and blood that you have and if you are a native of his country why you are as much a native as he is -- no doubt the same flesh and blood, the same nation or nationality, but his Office he holds is the difference.

Dr. Pethrus: Yes! Yes! But is it possible for Your followers to go so far in experience after they really realize this Truth, so they can be Gods too?

FATHER: We are not representing Gods many. We are representing the ONE, the Only ONE, the True and Living GOD, but we do recognize the Allness of GOD and the nothingness of matter, and the mortal concept of GOD and all things.

Dr. Pethrus: But YOU think then YOU can offer the man Salvation from sin, Yourself? YOU asked me if I came for Salvation.

FATHER: What is Salvation? Is it not the Truth? Is it not Information? Is it not to save a person from a delusion?

Dr. Pethrus: But it is More!

FATHER: Well, it consists of the same, and of course if a person is not saved from every delusion and mis-concept of the Truth concerning his CHRIST, he cannot have Salvation.

Dr. Pethrus: Yes, I am thankful to YOU for this opportunity. It is one thing I would like YOU to have done, and it was to have given me more clear answers to the questions, because I want clearness, and it is not the same as some people that come to YOU. I want to be clear on some questions, and I have not got the clear answers I hoped to get.

FATHER: The information you are seeking is the information of man, but if you are seeking information from GOD, you can very readily get it from the within: the information of man is not true.

Dr. Pethrus: But I have from my childhood, been seeking real Salvation and Information from GOD, and it is just that kind of Light I want -- Light on the wonderful things concerning GOD. It is just what I want -- what I ask YOU.

FATHER: Well, it is all answered by this: The relaxation of your conscious mentality is but the re-conception of GOD'S Omniscience! GOD will answer every question when you relax your conscious mentality and still yourself as an individual. So long as your human intellect is active, trying to fathom out GOD, and yet it is mortal, it is a matter of impossibility for you to get the true information.

As far as I AM telling the human intellect concerning GOD without an inspiration or without a revelation, it is a matter of impossibility for them to get the real information they are seeking, for no man knoweth GOD by his human intellect. It is written,

'Where is the wise, and where are the scribes; has not GOD hid these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes and sucklings?'

It also says,

'Except ye be converted and become as this little child, you can in no wise enter into the Kingdom of GOD.'

So it goes to show, the human intellect as men count wisdom; it is a matter of impossibility for them to understand HIM -- I mean to understand GOD. So the only way to get the real information and to be blessed as these Blessings are manifested here among us, is for a person to relax his conscious mentality and still himself personally as an individual, and believe sincerely on GOD and take HIM at His Word without a question.

Dr. Pethrus: YOU mean then, to believe in YOU as GOD?

FATHER: It is not necessary to believe in ME as a Person. But as I say, if you are seeking ME to get information concerning ME, it is essential for you to harmonize with ME. Unless there is harmony, it is a matter of impossibility for you to get information, for the information comes from the Spirit volitionally and transmittingly to the other person. That is the mystery!

Dr. Pethrus: Yes! Yes! I have come in a very kindly meaning to YOU, and I am very thankful for this opportunity to see YOU and to speak to YOU.

FATHER: Well I AM pleased to give it to you, and I sacrificed today, because I would have gone away.

Dr. Pethrus: I am very sorry.

FATHER: No, I AM pleased to meet you, and still AM willing to do so because you are a stranger --supposed to be -- in this Country, and of course it is written,

'Be mindful how you entertain strangers.'

By that, as a Fulfiller of the Scripture I AM telling you better in Actions than in Words, Who I AM and Who I AM Representing, you see. That is the mystery! So I endeavor to, and AM Doing, exactly according to My Teaching from every angle expressible.

Dr. Pethrus: I am impressed of YOU, and I have the best feelings concerning Your Work here among the poor, and I think it is Wonderful!

FATHER: Well our Work reaches all people -- the rich, the poor, the high and the low -- and it will lift them according to their Faith and consecration. Naturally there are those who do not believe, and naturally that person, or those who do not believe, cannot receive as those who do. But as I often say, as far as the material blessings are concerned, the blessings are as operative for others and as demonstrative for others, as they are for ME as a Person -- if a person will place himself in the right position or proper position where he can receive the blessings. He cannot receive the blessings unless he gets in that channel. Hence, if you get in the channel of the Spirit by trusting GOD whole-heartedly, the blessings will come, the same as information, the same as intelligence.

Now I AM not studying literarily, for the purpose of information. By the relaxation of Myself as a Person from My human concept of things, or Personal concept of things, as a person would in the way of trying to read to find out something, the Spirit will bring those things within.

Now coming in contact with you, as in coming in contact with many others, I contact you from a mental and spiritual point of view. I AM not especially seeking information from you as a person from a human concept, but through My contact with you harmoniously, the reaction of your thoughts will tell ME whatsoever you are thinking, because we are one, in reality. Mentally and spiritually, and through the human concept of things; if we contact the plane wherein an individual is functioning, we can get information from them.

Dr. Pethrus: But I think it is a difference between people that believe in YOU, and people who do not believe. It is a difference!

FATHER: Well of course, there is a channel through which they can get information, by contacting the Fundamentals for which I stand harmoniously, for they are Impersonal.

Now you see, hospitality, an expression of Love and kindness according to the teaching of the Religions, these expressions can be contacted harmoniously, and these are some of the expressions of which I AM reflecting. Those who contact these Fundamentals of these Principles harmoniously, they will get more information from the harmonious contact of the Fundamentals of Life that I AM expressing, than they could understand, than they could get from ME Personally as a Person.

You see, I may try to tell you something as a Person, but if I tell you I AM GOD it does not change your real understanding, it is only external to you. But if you contact ME harmoniously, scientifically, mentally and spiritually, there will be something that will tell you within you, whether I AM GOD or the "other fellow". I use the word, the "other fellow", instead of using the word that the Religions call the "other fellow". The majority of the Religions of man or Religions whichever, call the "other fellow" the d-v-l you see, while we do not use that word so much; and the metaphysicians do not use that word as a rule, because we believe it tends to create an atmosphere undesirable, such as the concept of such a thing would bring.

Now we believe in the recognition and the realization of good, and we believe in the abolition of every mortal concept concerning undesirable things having any power whatever. We believe in eradicating and dispelling such a thought from our consideration and recognizing GOD as Ever Present, having All Power, All Wisdom, All Knowledge, and All Understanding. Hence there is no other if GOD is at all Real!

Therefore, we will not give the powers of wickedness, vice and crime, a chance to exist, for we harmonize the conscious and subconscious mentality of those we come in contact with and cause them to think consciously and subconsciously in the positive direction instead of the negative. By thinking vividly in the positive direction instead of the negative, the negative is dispelled and eradicated completely, and the positive comes forth into expression in reality. Therefore, success and prosperity as an outward expression is manifested. It is manifesting the mystery.

Men wonder, how can we be successful, how can we be independent, free from solicitation, free from taking collections, free from having any connection with those who do take collections and such like, yet having a-full and a-plenty. It is because I recognize the actual Presence of GOD, for where there is Love there is GOD, and where GOD is there is Abundance.

Therefore the Abundance results from every angle both mentally and spiritually, and we cannot be a failure under such conditions, because it is nothing but success and prosperity uppermostly in our consciousness, nothing but GOD and Love and Power. The negative has no longer an existence in our consciousness, therefore it cannot be made real.

But men who believe in wars, race-riots and races, creeds and colors, and divisions of any kind, they cannot express the Omnipotence of the CHRIST JESUS Mind. But those who live with ME in this recognition, who believe in the Unity of Spirit, of Mind, of Aim and of Purpose, and believe in the abolition of every sense of segregation or division among the Nations and Peoples of the earth -- when this is established in one's consciousness he can only express such as would be the Abundance, because he is part of all.

As I was saying yesterday, there are those who look upon different races, creeds and colors and groups, as inferior and as superior, but I look upon them from an angle that has caused My Followers to ascend above the limitations of men. They do not live in the realm of expressing any group. My Followers, by their daily actions -- those who are living exactly according to My Teaching, they are expressing Perfection. They are expressing above all nations, all nationalities. The least in the Kingdom is greater then John the Baptist. They are expressing the great, the mighty, the honesty of the honest. The most perfect state of expression manifested in humanity in the way of morality, My Followers are expressing it!

It is because they have ascended and transcended the limitations of humanity, the versions of men, nationalities, races, creeds and colors. They are above any race -- any kind of a race. It matters not what kind of race they may be termed, My Followers express Perfection in the way of modesty, and honesty, and competence and Truth, Faith and zeal and courage, above all nations, languages, tongues and people. Therefore they are not limited.

Dr. Pethrus: Yes, that is right.

FATHER: That is the mystery! It is indeed Wonderful! Now, men will look upon ME as though I AM of some special race. This Standard of expression wherein I AM functioning transcends the nature and the characteristics of any race upon the face of the earth, and those who live according to My Teaching, they will transcend the human race and revel into the Glorious Liberty of the Sons of GOD!

Dr. Pethrus: I think GOD does not count any race.

FATHER: That is it. When we lift our minds from those things, then and there from our concept of HIM of Whom we trust we will mentally and spiritually ascend, and by mentally and spiritually ascending from those limited concepts of things, we will also morally and spiritually express from that angle of expression in our present bodies and in our daily actions.

My Followers are returning all stolen goods, paying all old bills from the early days of childhood up until the present time. Why? Because they have transcended nationalities, races, creeds and colors, and the human race. The human race will not do that. They must take on the CHRIST characteristics and the angelic nature from the invisible realm as created by the Maker.

By this, the Kingdom has truly come from the invisible realm and the ruling forces of our present government shall eventually brought into subjection to the CHRIST Consciousness. When this shall have been accomplished, then and there the CHRIST Mind, as the great Supreme, shall rule as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings, in and over and through and by all men, and none will be able to hinder HIM.

The same as human intellect, human intelligence, as it is advanced in the individual, that person becomes to be an intelligent person from that angle of expression. He can cope with those in that state of affairs and in his respective profession. But when he transcends that degree, others cannot come where he is unless they come as he has already come. So it is in the mystery of the advancement of the Kingdom of GOD. We pray to let the Kingdom come and the Will be done on earth -- well, it cannot come saving in us and in our concept of the Kingdom, by changing our version concerning heaven from our imaginary concept of things.

Our imaginary concept of heaven had been some place geographically, and some place where Righteousness would Rule and have full control of business. Graft and greed, vice and crime, and all sin would be done away with. We would not have it there whichever. It would not be a place where those conditions would exist.

Well now, when this CHRIST Consciousness and the Spirit of it shall have entered the hearts and lives of the children of men, all mankind will be governed by the great One and only Supreme Principle, and each individual will be ruled by the One and only Supreme Principle, CHRIST, on the throne of his and on the throne of their minds, as LORD of Lord and KING of Kings.

There and then the Kingdom has come, for wheresoever a King reigns there is where his Kingdom is. That is the mystery! Now this is called the Kingdom of GOD! Why is it? It is because GOD rules uppermostly in the consciousness of all. If HE is not manifestly controlling all those of whom HE is not fully controlling, there is another that HE has control in, through and over, who will control those who are not fully controlled by GOD. That is the mystery!

Therefore, wheresoever a King reigns, there is where his Kingdom is. This Office is the Kingdom of GOD materially manifested, as far as that is concerned, because the CHRIST Mind has control, and rules and reigns over all these things -- material things as well as Spiritual things. That is the mystery of the coming of the Kingdom, according to My Version.

Jesus said,

'The Kingdom of GOD is within you",

and HE taught you to pray,

'Let Thy kingdom come on earth, (or in earth) as it is in heaven.'

Therefore the ruling forces of the great Universal Mind Substance, and the great Universal Mind Substance, must come to the earth plane and have control over all material things, as well as it has had control over the mental and spiritual things from the Spiritual Realm, which is commonly known as heaven.

Dr. Pethrus: YOU were speaking of collections! YOU do not take any collections?


Dr. Pethrus: But I think the folks who love Your Work should give to Your Work.

FATHER: Not unless I give them something material, and personal, and tangible, for same.

Dr. Pethrus: But it must be, people give means to the Work!

FATHER: When they give ME, I give them something material. I do not mean I give them something Spiritual -- Spiritual Gifts and Blessings and Callings are without price. They are the Gifts of GOD. In short, they are the Gift of GOD.

Dr. Pethrus: How many followers do YOU think there are to this Kingdom?

FATHER: It has been estimated at about thirty-two million.

Dr. Pethrus: In America?

FATHER: Not in America -- throughout the world.

Dr. Pethrus: I have seen in Your Paper here, places in Switzerland. YOU have a body there too?

FATHER: Yes, we have followers, or representatives in every Country -- I mean all over both Europe, Asia and Africa. Yes, we have quite a few places in Switzerland. Of course, this is not a full list of the places, this is just a slight sketch in different parts, that they might get a little information concerning it.

Dr. Pethrus: Have YOU a record of the people that belong to this Movement?

FATHER: I do not.

Dr. Pethrus: YOU have no record?


Dr. Pethrus: It is approximated?

FATHER: Yes. You see, one thing, in My Method I have never attempted to count the Blessings of GOD.

Dr. Pethrus: How many can be in the building? How many seats? How many people can be inside here?

FATHER: Well now I cannot say definitely how many can be seated here at the Table or in the auditorium. We will soon be going down for luncheon, and if you have a little time we will have you go down with us for luncheon and you will see how it is. Of course, this is just noon-day, there will not be so many as in the evening. It is crowded in the evenings in the auditorium and dining room and of course this is just one of the places.

Dr. Pethrus: Well, this is one of the biggest places, isn't it?

FATHER: Well, I could not say; we have some places larger than this.

Dr. Pethrus: YOU have some places in Chicago, I have been in one place there.

FATHER: Have you been to California?

Dr. Pethrus: No. I am going to California. I will possibly there two weeks or so.

FATHER: I think through your contact you will get quite a little Spiritual information through harmonizing with the Principle. You will get quite a little Spiritual information, because I think the Spirit will bring it to you. You see you cannot get it merely from seeing or from hearing, but through your rightful contact and harmonizing with the Fundamentals that are according to the Gospel so far as you can read in the Bible -- by this you will get an inspiration, for Jesus said,

'When He, the Spirit of Truth, has come He shall teach you all things",

and He also said,

'If you abide in Me and let My words abide in you, My FATHER and I will come and make our abode with you.'

The inspiration that will give information for anything you want to know concerning the mystery, will come if you will harmonize with it.

Dr. Pethrus: I thank YOU very much for Your kindness. I am so thankful for Your kindness and time. I am a pastor over a Church of fifty-five hundred members. I started that work over twenty years ago with thirty members, and I was very interested to come to see this Work.

FATHER: Well, of course, My Followers are very enthusiastic, and they have implicit faith in ME, and will do anything they believe will please ME. If a person is not accustomed to attending such an Organization or such an Assembly, usually it is a little strange to them, but you are welcome to take part, and I think you will get a little more information through your contact. Dr. Pethrus: I have learned a lot of things now -- this time.

FATHER: I hope what you have gained, and what you will gain through the contact, will not be limited to you yourself alone. I hope it will mean a blessing to your people, because as the President of the United States was saying the other day in South America, we want Peace throughout the world, and if men will co-operate in bringing about Peace -- now I AM saying this -- by harmonizing with the Fundamentals that stand for Peace, I believe we can have it.

In My demonstrations we do not need a policeman to control the masses. Though I may have ten thousand, or even fifty thousand in the streets we do not need a policeman to control the masses. The police department here in New York will tell you that. So it goes to show you, the word "Peace" is not merely a formula, it is a living reality.

We make it real, tangible and practical and we put it into practice daily. So, by co-operating with others . . .

Dr. Pethrus: With other Christians too!

FATHER: Yes, that is what I say, with other Christians and other Believers, why naturally the transmission of such things will be transmitted to them and the influence and the power of it will have power over wicked men, to control them.

(Following this, the visitors inspected the Dining Room which was filled to overflow. They were just in time to see a large delegation arrive from the Pacific Coast, and they were invited to sit down with the Followers from the West, but they made their departure saying they did not have time to stay for Luncheon.)

Editor's Update Note: The popular Warner Brothers movies, "0 GOD" and "0 GOD II", featuring the late George Burns in the title role, would never have been produced had not the Personification of GOD by FATHER DIVINE been so vividly manifested and enduringly established.