FATHER DIVINE
Mr. Kleckner: FATHER, my name is Kleckner. I was talking to You on the phone. This is Mr. Thomas.
FATHER: Pleased to meet you, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Kleckner: I was just going through Your book. You've got quite a nice magazine there.
FATHER: Thank you.
Mr. Kleckner: We stopped over to see You relative to my conversation with You last night over the telephone, and the Lieutenant told me that You had already granted him a favor here; some of the boys were using the hotel for washing facilities...
FATHER: Showers.
Mr. Kleckner: Showers and shower baths, which You had already given them the use of.
FATHER: Sure. Well, we could do that as a church, but of course you might understand the situation--the owners gave us a grant to the property for the church, and the church has been organized and incorporated here, and that is in keeping with our work to do any charitable work for a person or for a nation, especially so long as it is legitimate and according to our religious discipline. And when I heard he wanted about thirty of the boys to come over here to take baths, I made the suggestion, maybe they all could. I think it would be the church's privilege to do that, in keeping with our Work, without violating the agreement with the owners of record. And so then I suggested even accommodating the thirty boys here. We could give them one floor; that was the suggestion and that would be in keeping with our church agreement with the owners, and I think the trustees pretty well agreed to it.
Mr. Kleckner: Yes.
Lt. Thomas: I appreciated that offer; however, we couldn't very well accept unless there was a lease of some sort. A military outfit and civilians wouldn't mix very readily, whether you are at war or whether you're not, because it's the same way with a person in a home; if we rented a home from a person and that person retained a room or a suite of rooms in it, there would always be a little dissatisfaction because all of us are not alike. What I do, You probably wouldn't like and what the other man does I probably would 't like, whereas if we rent or lease we do what we want and it is paid for afterwards if we damage anything.
FATHER: I see. That's true. I'm quite sure it is a different proposition, but owing to our religious conviction and according to our religious discipline, we would have the right to receive government officials, or any of the privates or anyone who is in keeping with the government rules and regulations...
Lt. Thomas: That's right.
FATHER: ...whether civilians or...
Lt. Thomas: And there was another thing we took in consideration; those men coming off the beach in wet weather, snowy, rain, pulling sand with them up and down the elevators; there's a lot of additional work attached to those things.
FATHER: Well, it's true, but of course the church was willing to co-operate with the government to that extent, and they have the elevators there and since they had thought if it was necessary, if they were going to have a watch here all the winter, it would be necessary for them to keep open for the civilian defense, and we thought maybe that was a way we could extend our co-operation to that degree.
Lt. Thomas: Well, as far as I was concerned, I would have accepted it and closed that station up there immediately if I could, but of course I am under orders, so I couldn't accept it myself.
FATHER: I thought maybe they could live here. They would not have to eat here if they did not want them to eat here, but they would have a comfortable place and they would appreciate their work much more.
Lt. Thomas: Yes, I know they would.
FATHER: They would have better feelings toward the government. Even though it comes through the contact with us, the government would prepare better living accommodation for them.
Lt. Thomas: Well, we have some very poor living accommodation in our service at certain places, and that happens to be one of them. I have been in places just like that; spent five years in one place...
FATHER: My!
Lt. Thomas: ...However, we are trying to change that situation--in fact, we just got the pipe in day before yesterday to continue our building. If that is done, there will be some place up there. But in the meantime, I understand Commander Hitchins was in Your office yesterday, and that is the reason I came over here with him today. I didn't know they had even thought about this, although I had asked for it myself. I had asked to see if we couldn't get this whole building.
FATHER: Well, I hadn't heard of that, but I just heard you asked for the boys to come here to take showers.
Lt. Thomas: That's all I did here. That's exactly what I did, because up there we rely on rain water, and with sixty-five men up there rain water doesn't go so far.
FATHER: Well, even when this place was taken over, the owners said it could be to co-operate with the government in case of emergency, for refugees or for anything like that, you know; if they had to evacuate any from the city or anything of that sort; and of course after that they turned over the building to us as the church and the church was organized and incorporated here. But it is our privilege to do anything in keeping with My professional Work and Mission. We have a right to rescue the perishing and care for the dying, and do anything according to our professional Work and Mission, and I knew, as the information came to Me they did not have the accommodation up there and it was very inconvenient for them, I knew it would be a blessing, as the manager here said, if the boys could merely take a bath. Then I said maybe we could accommodate at least the thirty right here, and I considered they could eat where they had been eating, or elsewhere, if they wanted to--I mean, if it was agreeable with the government, if their superior officers wanted them to do so; but the accommodation I thought would be such a blessing for them this winter.
Lt. Thomas: Well, of course they will be warm, I guarantee You that, because I always want to be warm if it's possible to keep warm, and I know I am going to keep the rest of them warm if there is any way of getting anything to keep them warm with.
FATHER: And, of course, we have plenty of water here. But according to Mr. Lamb, My secretary, he said he thought if we keep open and it would not be running full capacity--I mean, it would only be more of the immediate connection members and those right around who would be here maybe on week-ends or something of that sort, it would cost quite a little to run it; but the church was not considering the price to run it so long as we could get the fuel, and we were not considering the government giving us any fuel, or anything of that sort, we wanted to co-operate to that extent as a contribution to the government and just let the government use its influence and give us the privilege to buy the fuel we need, let the church or owners supply the building with all the necessary heat. That was our suggestion and, of course, they are in a position they could do it and they would be willing to do it if it could have been carried out that way, but I understand, as you say, they said it would not be agreeable to the authorities.
Lt. Thomas: Well, I don't think it would make it agreeable either way.
FATHER: Well, if they would comply with the rules--pardon Me for interrupting-- there are some rules and regulations under our religious discipline which would conflict with most men on the outside...
Lt. Thomas: That's right.
Brigantine Hotel
FATHER: ...you see, such as smoking--and that is a simple thing; nearly everybody smokes. There is no harm in smoking to the average person. Some people think there is harm to drinking if they drink too much, but they don't think there is harm in drinking unless you do drink too much. But not any of those things are done in our assemblies and under our jurisdiction.
Lt. Thomas: That's what I know, and I know my boys...
FATHER: That's right.
Lt. Thomas: ...and of course I guess You have been around quite a few Yourself; but they usual run that I have is all nice, nothing wrong with them. Some get in little mix-ups once in a while, but after discipline and working under--well, it isn't under full pressure all the time but it is monotonous work around these places, very monotonous, especially for the men that walk the beach and stand watches. The reason it becomes monotonous is because there is no activity other than walking up and down...
FATHER: Certainly.
Lt. Thomas: ...so I understood Commander Hitchins wanted to see if they could lease the whole place.
FATHER: (to Mr. Kleckner) I understand you were the gentleman...
Mr. Kleckner: Yes, I was on the phone.
FATHER: Yes, I was telling you...
Lt. Thomas: The reason we came over today to get Your answer before then, is because these men are out there exposed and we want to give them housing facilities as soon as possible.
FATHER: Well, you can appreciate the fact--I think the manager told Me, I do not bear record exactly how many but I think she told Me yesterday, there are about eighty-some- odd owners of this property...
Mr. Kleckner: Eighty-seven, I think she told me.
FATHER: Yes, and they are scattered around in different parts. For the leasing of the building, the owners would have to do it, we haven't anything to do with it. They granted us the use of the building so long as we use it according to My Work and Mission without any gains. I cannot lease it for profit or anything of that sort because I must serve according to our religious discipline, and of course we have the grant of the use of the building and if they are willing to do anything in keeping with My Work and Mission, so long as we are not doing if for profit, you see--that is the reason I was so pleased to have the privilege through the owners to work even with the government to be able to accommodate the thirty this winter, even though it will cost the church quite a little to keep open, but they thought maybe since they had anticipated keeping open this winter they could as well co-operate in helping some one that is helping us
Lt. Thomas: Well, it certainly meant a whole lot to me to get that offer and I would like to accept it, but I couldn't do it because I want to bring the whole sixty-five down here and close the other place out.
FATHER: Well, we would be glad to give them a floor. I thought maybe they could take the upper floor, the tenth floor, and they would have the civilian defense...
Lt. Thomas: That tenth floor, I think they figured that up, would hold around seventy-five persons.
FATHER: Sure. Well, they were willing to give the whole thing over to them for that use.
Lt. Thomas: Well now, in addition to that, in addition to that station up here, we do have another unit which is operating out of Atlantic City, which I imagined is around three hundred men, going to sea all the time, and that is the other reason we have got to get a place where we can house these men and feed them and have them under one roof.
FATHER: They are supposed to have a meeting today; they are trying to get some of them together now, the trustees of the church, and get enough of them together to pass on it. But now the owners--as I said, I cannot promise you they could get in touch with the owners under a week.
Mr. Kleckner: Well, would You recommend it, FATHER?
FATHER: I would. Sure, I will. Of course, naturally...
Mr. Kleckner: I mean, they are led by You--I mean if You suggest it, wouldn't they abide by Your wishes and thoughts? You know it's a good purpose.
FATHER: Positively.
Mr. Kleckner: And I think the offer is more than reasonable, don't You?
FATHER: Well, it isn't a question of money; they are not thinking about the monetary side of it, and especially the church, you see; because those under My jurisdiction are free and they are not seeking dollars and cents, because I Myself have never taken up a collection and you cannot give Me a donation; you cannot give Me a contribution of any kind unless it was that you belonged to the church and would want to co-operate in the church...
Mr. Kleckner: Sure.
FATHER: So the members will co-operate--I mean, no doubt they will agree. I have spoken to the ones that are here and asked them if they would get together and decide one way or the other, but of course, naturally, as the old saying is...
Mr. Kleckner: Well, the building will certainly be put to a very good use by You doing this. It will have the best of care.
FATHER: Certainly. But of course there is no greater care than that of what you are under now and what you are getting through My co-operation...
Mr. Kleckner: Yes.
FATHER: ...not only from a material point of view but from a spiritual point of view. Our Chief Executive himself continues to cry or call for Divine Guidance. The spiritual guidance, the spiritual protection of our democracy is the great work of protection. You men may do the legal or political part, but we who are representing the spiritual side of our democracy, if the spiritual is not protected and the spiritual does not protect the legal, the legal will be a failure. We know that and we are contending--even our struggle now is for the freedom of religion as well as the freedom of the democracy, and of course the two are synonymous in My Teaching. I stress AMERICANISM and CHRISTIANITY to be synonymous when they are lived according to each of the great documents of both the religious world and of the political or legal world.
In the legal world we have the two great American documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and its Amendments, and if we as American citizens, live exactly according to these two great American documents we are Christians or religious at heart, in keeping with the two great religious documents, the New and the Old Testaments of the Bible. That is My conviction. And I believe they are synonymous. The legal part and the political part is to take care of the material and the economic side of life, and the spiritual and religious part must take care of the spiritual side of life, and the two work together. Hence, nothing could be greater and better than that of which we represent.
Mr. Kleckner: It sounds very feasible.
FATHER: Positively; because conscientiously, as I said here in a very recent Sermon, I do not believe it is possible for Hitler to get here. I do not believe it. I mean I AM speaking from a spiritual point of view. I believe the prayers or faith in GOD of the true Christian or religious world combined--not only Christians but Jews and Christians alike, all who are sincere--there are some conscientious, sincere religious people, whether they be Jews or Christians or Gentiles, whichever, who pray, and believing what they pray for, they get it, and I will assure you I get pretty much what I pray for, as it may be termed.
Prayer is the heart's sincere desire. You may not see Me in My Public meeting, getting down shouting to the top of My Voice: "Oh, GOD, come here!" like some of the orthodox do, but as prayer is the heart's sincere desire, it is unuttered and unexpressed. We know our prayers are heard and answered, for our desires reach the throne of grace; so I could almost guarantee, if we as American people, stand together as we are beginning to do now more than ever, it will be a matter of impossibility for the Japanese or any of the Axis to cross these borders. I believe all of it is going to be finished up over there quicker than you expect.
Lt. Thomas: I hope so.
FATHER: I believe it, because we are working on that side spiritually while the Government, the Army and Navy, are doing their part, and we are willing to, and we are co- operating with them as well from an economic and from a personal point of view whensoever we can. But we know that there is something greater and better than any institution of government aside from that of itself, the Government that controls the universe, and we rely on it.
Now it would be a good thing--I just want to say, it would be a good thing--but insignificant as I may apparently be, if I AM prohibited or hindered in My Work and Mission, it would be detrimental and more detrimental than if a regiment would be hindered. It is written:
'He that conquereth his own will is greater than he that taketh a city,'and we, the true and faithful Workers of CHRIST under My guidance and direction, according to the Life and the Teaching of CHRIST, are brought into subjection to the CHRIST CONSCIOUSNESS and we have conquered our own will. That is why we may have a will; humanly speaking, we may have an appetite to drink or smoke or desire to do it, but we will not do it because we feel it is against our religious conviction. We feel that we should not use our energy in that way; therefore, we should have a clean heart and a clear mind to go before the throne of grace, and whatsoever we ask we usually get it. Positively!
Mr. Kleckner: How many followers do You have, FATHER?
FATHER: Oh, they run up into the millions. I have no record...
Mr. Kleckner: They do?
FATHER: Positively! There are lots of them in Europe and Asia.
Mr. Kleckner: Europe?
FATHER: Positively. And Australia, I have some right over there now near where they are fighting.
Mr. Kleckner: Is that right? In North Africa?
FATHER: Yes, and in Australia and New Guinea.
(And with a few more remarks the interview was concluded.)
The New Day: November 26, 1942 A.D.F.D., Pg.11-15
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